521 replies to this topic

[jab16]

Dose anyone know if avation units of a police department are trained to shoot from a helicopter or have guns?

Regards,
Jab16

[Grim_Wizard]

I doubt it. And I take it you saw S.W.A.T., when the helichopter crashed and preluding it, the pilots were to occupied with flying it.
But I'm a fire guy, so and live in a small town, so I wouldn't know.

[jab16]

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[MCERT1]

Dose anyone know if avation units of a police department are trained to shoot from a helicopter or have guns?

Regards,
Jab16

I know the Columbus Ohio Aviation division officers carry fire arms... I've seen their choppers before and there are rifle ports on the copter, but I would highly doubt they ever use them. A helicopter would make a pretty poor shoot platform, as it can only remain stationary for a little while before it risks crashing to the ground. Also even if it is hovering, the rotor-wash could probably play real havoc with a bullet. I do know the use the helicopter to transport sniper teams to higher elevations. And with that being said, I know the United States Coast Guard has a specialized rifle which basically helps automatically stabilize it. The use it to shoot out the engine blocks on drug runner boats. I'm sure you can find a video of it in use somewhere.

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I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. Are you asking about what the plane is doing, or how would emergency services respond?
I don't think there is any special name for that, it's just an emergency landing (albeit computer generated) on a highway. Pilots of smaller planes are told to try and land on highways, because it is an ideal surface, and space (actually the U.S. interstate system is designed to be used as a runway in a national emergency, the autobahn also). I don't know if they advise larger planes to try that, since I'm pretty sure they won't fit, Normally they try to land in fields or water.

As for what would emergency services do, well......
If they had advance notice they would try to clear a stretch for the plane to land.
The only time I've ever heard such a call, only local emergency services were called, no specialized ARFF vehicles were dispatched. Mainly since hose small planes don't carry to much fuel, so two engines carry a small amount of foam are more than enough to deal with any fires that could occur. Most fire stations, that I know of, that are anywhere near an airport, normally when I've heard of this happening it occurs near one, carry a modest supply of foam on their trucks, and some aluminized turnouts.

[Grim_Wizard]

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About two years ago TRS, our station, and two units from the airport responded to a leer jet that had crashed over a feild and landed in a stretch of road, plaay mission 19 of 911 FR or EM4 to answer it better (Though it's not as realistic)

[pyrothijs]

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. Are you asking about what the plane is doing, or how would emergency services respond?
I don't think there is any special name for that, it's just an emergency landing (albeit computer generated) on a highway.

In the Netherlands it's called 'paraat vliegtuig' (get ready for airplane). If it's on an airfield, the Airport fire service would handle the incoming of the airplane, the city fire department would be called as backup. They would cover the runway with foam to prevent any leaking fuel from catching fire and they would choose position near the place where they think the plane will land (off course not on the runway, but next to it ).

On a highway I think they'd clear the highway and maybe cover it in foam too. Only they would have to call in a foam tender, cause our engines don't carry a lot of foam (maybe enough for 10 meters of highway LOL). City fire departments would be the first to respond here and the airport fire service would be on standby. If it's a large airport it is possible they would send in a crash tender to assist.

greetz,

[jab16]

wouldn't the foam make the plane slide?

[pyrothijs]

wouldn't the foam make the plane slide?

What would you rather have: a plane that slides an etra 5 meters (15 feet) because of foam, or two whole wings full of jet fuel bursting into flames?
Besides planes can also land on slippery runways that are wet from rain or snow. So why wouldn't they be able to land on runways coverd with foam?

[EDIT] off course this only counts if the landing gear is down and they still have controll over the breaks. If either one of those is missing the plane will dump as mch fuel as possible and will attempt to land with retracted landing gear. This is much more dangerous. [/EDIT]

greetz,

Dieser Beitrag wurde von pyrothijs bearbeitet: 24 Januar 2009 - 01:57

[aussie firie]

Hi guy's i've got alot of questions for american firefighters. In movies they seem to respond ladder trucks to everything. I realise that every county/district but i was curious as a general rule of thumb.

I was also curious how often do you vertically ventilate? Or is it just a big put on in the movies? I know over here in australia (or at least in the services i've been involved in) vertical ventilation is quite frowned upon. Espically when there are ram fans!!! But there is no right or wrong just curious.

And why is the ambulance/ fire service combined in america. What other countries are they like that in? Downunder they are split into there own seperate stations etc.

Also why do your fire trucks and ambos only have red and orange/yellow lights??? I've always wondered that.

Final question what other countries have state fire and rescue or even federal run? Just curious sorry for the long post, and sorry for some of the stupid questions
Aussie firie

[MikesPhotos]

Dose anyone know if avation units of a police department are trained to shoot from a helicopter or have guns?

Regards,
Jab16

Google "Airborne Use of Force" "San Bernardino"

Many departments are developing policies for use in open terrain areas around the border and deserts with San Bernardino Co. Sheriffs Dept being one of the true pioneers in civilian law enforcement.

Also google USCG HITRON or search on here for HITRON for my post on the coast guards airborne use of force units.

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For most large scale films shot in the Los Angeles region that involve safety concerns or pyrotechnics, either a City or County fire inspector would be on scene to ensure that the film crew has secured the services of private emergency responders. If neccesary, Fire dept resources have been requested to stand by in case of any unforseen incident as well. The LAPD maintains a film unit that handles security, traffic control and other law enforcement issues with off duty or retired officers and motor units. Since in all likelyhood this was done with CGI, there was probably no response by any agency.

If you mean a real Emergency Landing by an aircraft, it would be diverted to the nearest airport if possible which would include a full preplanned response by airport ARFF units as well as local Fire department resources depending on the size and type of plane with passenger aircraft eliciting a mass casualty response that might not be needed for a large cargo plane. In regards to foaming the runway, please see this article by the FAA regarding best pracitices for ARFF foam which says:

The FAA does not recommend the foaming of runways for emergency landings and warns against the practice with any foam other than "Protein" foam. Fluroprotein foam, film forming fluroprotein foam, and aqueous film forming foam are not considered suitable for runway foaming operations due to their short drainage time. It is recommended that ARFF personnel decline to foam a runway when requested by a pilot because they do not have the specialized equipment and protein foam.

The effectiveness of runway foaming is not fully substantiated by the real evidence of operational incident studies. Neither the International Fire Service Training Association (IFSTA) nor the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) recommends the practice.

If the airplane is unable to make it to the nearest airport, the next option is usually a water landing similar to the one in New York which would involve a full response by all lifeguard, harbor patrol, dive teams, and coast guard rescue units in the area pertaining to prearranged plans and operating procedures for that ype of Mass Casualty response. Please see this google news link for a plethora of stories on a recent water landing drill conducted by the City and County of Los Angeles.

If the airplane is unable to make it to the water or airport, here in Los Angeles, we've had numerous instances of SMALL planes landing on various roads, golf courses and freeways, for a larger plane, there are no sections of streets or freeways clear of obstacles and overpasses long enough for that kind of landing and the response would be a plane down fire and law enforcement response with an extra USAR and mass casualty response. Recently there have been a few disasters on the east coast of that magnitude, the last one in the Los Angeles area that I can remember was the Aeromexico Flight 498 incident.

Hi guy's i've got alot of questions for american firefighters. In movies they seem to respond ladder trucks to everything. I realise that every county/district but i was curious as a general rule of thumb.

It depends on the department, their responses to ALS and BLS, and the makeup of the station and availibity of other units and nature of the call. For LAFD and LACoFD a truck or light force are typically responded if they are the nearest available unit to cut down on response times and to assist the paramedics with gathering information, CPR, and patient care/lifting.

I was also curious how often do you vertically ventilate? Or is it just a big put on in the movies? I know over here in australia (or at least in the services i've been involved in) vertical ventilation is quite frowned upon. Espically when there are ram fans!!! But there is no right or wrong just curious.

As a general rule of thumb in the Southern California area, vertical ventilation occurs on darn near every fire, especially due to the type of construction we have here. Remember firefighting tactics are based on the type of construction, and what is prevalent in one place might not be in others. Good "vertical ventilation lafd" and you can see how often it occurs. Also see this page for LAFD's ventilation manual on their training site.

And why is the ambulance/ fire service combined in america. What other countries are they like that in? Downunder they are split into there own seperate stations etc.

It's not in every area. For example LACoFD relies on private transport of patients whereas LAFD has their own ambulances. Why? Different strokes for different folks. Its all dependent on cost, area served, and tradition. LACoFD Firefighters are happy they don't have to get stuck wasting hours transporting every band aid call that can dial 911 and are more then happy to leave that to the private ambulance companies to deal with. LAFD on the other hand likes knowing that every ambulance that arrives on scene has a fully rained LAFD firefighter who is familiar with their procedures, level of care, and they never have to worry about contracts or response times that plague contract ambulance companies. Plus the members on the ambulance are fire rated and can function in a greater capacity on other incidents.

Also why do your fire trucks and ambos only have red and orange/yellow lights??? I've always wondered that.

Depends on the area, some even have green, red, blue, yellow or any other color. The reasons are mostly tradition.

Final question what other countries have state fire and rescue or even federal run? Just curious sorry for the long post, and sorry for some of the stupid questions
Aussie firie

Most countries have their fire and ems systems at the federal level vs the local level due to their size. One only needs to look at a map of Europe to see that some countries are smaller then some US states.

[Xplorer4x4]

And why is the ambulance/ fire service combined in america. What other countries are they like that in? Downunder they are split into there own seperate stations etc.

Also why do your fire trucks and ambos only have red and orange/yellow lights??? I've always wondered that.

Final question what other countries have state fire and rescue or even federal run? Just curious sorry for the long post, and sorry for some of the stupid questions
Aussie firie

Its not combined here. I havent had a chance ton confirm this but I was told by a local firefighter that all the AMR here is ALS. AMR uses box and vintage style ambulances just like the LA Mod. Well I noticed one earlier said Paramedic Unit on it which leads to assume that the FF was wrong, and that AMR provides ALS and BLS here. I also notice that some crews wear all blue while some wear white shirts with black or dark blue pants, leading me to further question the ALS/BLS policy here. None the less We only have AMR here. With in the county there are a few stations which have a rescue ambulance capable of transport but I think this is basically our version of a mass casualty units. with out the transport responsibilities. I once worked with a voulenteer fire fighter and I believe he said it was capable of holding multiple patients.

Didnt get the last part. Mike probabaly covered this far better then I will but federal agencies are prevalent here but they are very low key. Several years ago a tornado tore through a trailer park in town killing nearly 20 people all with in probabaly a one mile distance. http://www.knightfir...ages/bkg-18.jpg but the only federal assistance we had was National Guard. Eventually FEMA stepped in on the money front but thats about it.



I have a few questions.

What are the typical staffing of a fire house like this(keep in mind its a volunteer station but has crews staffing the station 24/7. ):
1 Main Pumper - 6 passenger capacity.
1 Quint
1 Reserve Engine with 4/5 passenger capacity.
2 BC Chiefs(Crown Vic and Suburban)

What about a dive rescue ambulance? 2 FF/PM and 2 divers?

Oh and how come alot of fire trucks used to be designed with the rear passenger seats facing backwards with out a door leaving the cab exposed to the elements?

[jab16]

Well it differs from station to station but here at each satation there is a pumper most have a ambulance to and special units differ for coverge like there is a north central and south hazmat two ladder trucks at least on each side of town and mabie usar north and one south as for bc they have a pickup that is marked they use as a pov and work truck

[Xplorer4x4]

I was wondering how they are staffed, based on guesses of course.

[MCERT1]

Well I guess it would depend by place. Normally in these parts you'd have one our two paid drivers and paramedic on at all times (usually). Then you have a couple of guys who tend to work for the township as maintenance workers, so they are always on call and fairly close by. So around here full staffing is two or three drives another two or three guys close by, and at least one maybe even two paramedics also in station.

[Xplorer4x4]

I never see volunteers responding code 3 here. Typically they drive a full size pick up with a blue light on the dash. I am going to say theres atleast 5 on duty as now that I think about it when they responded for that minor medical the other night they had about 5 FFs, and I know the primary engine holds 6 or 7. I cant recall if there was 4 ot 5 seats in the rear. Plus the county/city doesnt do medical transport. Its all AMR except 1 county station which has a Chevy C5500/EVI walk-in Medium Rescue and I found a video from a few weeks ago where they were loading a patient in the back.

[Ami89E1234]

anyone know of any fire departments that still use fog units? theyre kinda more effective than water...

[Xplorer4x4]

I am guessing you meant flood lights by the water reference? We dont use fog lights here afaik.


What are the black tubes on fire trucks for? I am talking about the thing on the back right.
http://www.indianafi...e-1-returns.jpg

[Ami89E1234]

no, a fog unit is an engine that uses fog to put out a fire. can be more effective than water because
a. it encompasses a larger area
b. spreads out
c. little water damage
d. can be used against basically everything
e. suffocates fire

[jab16]

LOL then they should build a circle of those around a wildfire and put it out hey I should be fire chief