521 replies to this topic

[emergency4freak]

Why do some departments use black turnout or black helmets? Is there a reason behind it?

The different coloured helmets symbolize their ranks.

Edited by MikesPhotos, 10 October 2008 - 03:55 AM.
Moved to proper thread

[zootoo63]

The different coloured helmets symbolize their ranks.

not always i dont think. correct me if im wrong

Edited by MikesPhotos, 10 October 2008 - 03:55 AM.
Moved to proper thread

[firefighter111]

not always i dont think. correct me if im wrong

99% of the time the color represents the rank of the person wearing it, at least in the U.S., I don't know about other countries.
Yellow- Used on the west coast as the normal firefighter color, used on the east coast as either junoir firefighter or explorer, but some departments use them as firefighter helmet color.
Black- don't know if it's really used on the west coast, used mainly on the east coast to symbolize the rank of firefighter.
Red- again, don't know if it's really used on the west coast, on the east coast it primarily symbolizes a company officer. ex: Lieutenant of Engine 23, Captain of Truck 45.
Aqua: rarley seen, used on the east coast to symbolize saftey officers.
White: Used almost everywhere to designate a cheif at any level, ie: battalion, division, assistant...
Also, some departmentshave all black helmets up to the rank of cheif with the sheilds symbolizing rank. Here's how the FDNY does it.
Red Sheild with Firefighters name written on it: Probationary firefighter.
Black Sheild with colored square and number: color is for the type of company, and the number is the company's number.
Black: Engine, Red: Truck , Light Blue: Rescue, Yellow: Squad
White Sheild with Colored Number: Lieutenant or captain of a company color of the number represents the type of the company and the number is the companies number.

[MikesPhotos]

This topic was moved since it had nothing to do with the LA Mod and was a general emergency service question.

Why do some departments use black turnout or black helmets? Is there a reason behind it?

The simple reason is tradition. Many fire departments go back long before the days of nomex, plastic, and the Reciprocating engine, and many of the differences you see between departments relies on hundreds of years of their specific tradition. Because many departments were local companies made up of the people in the neighborhood, the fire service in America has always been very insular and tied very closely to the citizens they protect.

There is great pride in today's firefighters in the accomplishments, achievements, and efforts of those who came before us. The black helmet you are referring to I'm assuming is the traditional leather new yorker style that has been in use since the 1800s and is credited to Gratacap, who was a New York City Firefighter and luggage maker during that time. Many departments still use or allow the use of Leather helmets or similarly styled ones, but they are not suited for every clime and region. Here in Southern California, those who have gone to it usually switch back to the lighter styles because of the weather out here just doesn't work well with having a very heavy piece of dark leather sitting on your head for extended periods of time. But not everyone does, and departments like LACoFD allow the use a traditional style helmet if the member wants to wear one.

In regards to some of the other comments regarding rank. With modern style helmets, rank can and usually is, denoted by color of the helmet. With the traditional style, rank is usually denoted by the color of the tetrahedrons attached to the helmet while the helmet remains black for all ranks. Some other makers, like Cairns N6A can be ordered in various colors but that is less common.

Every dept. is different, every one gets to choose whatever they want and to do things how ever they want and it almost always falls back on one word... Tradition.

[firefighter111]

Mike, I noticed in your pics that the LAPD mounted officers aren't wearing helmets. Is this just because they were at the Air Heros Show, or do they not wear helmets when they ride at all? I know that it's not against the law out west where you are, but after riding for 10 years, I know I wouldn't ride a horse in a busy city without a helmet, even if I didn't have to wear a helmet.

[MikesPhotos]

Mike, I noticed in your pics that the LAPD mounted officers aren't wearing helmets. Is this just because they were at the Air Heros Show, or do they not wear helmets when they ride at all? I know that it's not against the law out west where you are, but after riding for 10 years, I know I wouldn't ride a horse in a busy city without a helmet, even if I didn't have to wear a helmet.

I am not sure re: riot control duty, but for all other duties, they ride with the cowboy/cavalry hat. LASD rides with motorcycle-ish riding helmets from what i've seen.

Mike

[firefighter111]

I am not sure re: riot control duty, but for all other duties, they ride with the cowboy/cavalry hat. LASD rides with motorcycle-ish riding helmets from what i've seen.

Mike

I'm guessing from what you said, LASD wears this type of helmet

Thanks for the anwser though, I guess it depends on wether you usualy wear a helmet when you ride whenever.

[MikesPhotos]

I'm guessing from what you said, LASD wears this type of helmet

Thanks for the anwser though, I guess it depends on wether you usualy wear a helmet when you ride whenever.

No idea to be honest, Horses and I have never been on the best of terms. Here is an image of the LASD unit (NOT MY IMAGE)

[Newfoundking]

i have alwayxs wondered why horses and not the water canon trucks of death, they last longer and are much more protectioning, and scary

[jab16]

i have alwayxs wondered why horses and not the water canon trucks of death, they last longer and are much more protectioning, and scary

the guy farthest to the left has a mike on his helmet like the motorcycle officers now that is cool but why don't they use there raidos on there shirts?

[MCERT1]

i have alwayxs wondered why horses and not the water canon trucks of death, they last longer and are much more protectioning, and scary

I think in general it's just because horses are a traditional and still very effective means of crowd control. As a hobby I'm a Civil War reenactor, and I'll tell you a line of mounted men coming at you at any speed is pretty terrifying. Plus the horses are specially trained, they won't panic and can deal with tight places, which means you can create a solid and immovable wall.

So , I think it really is more just the fact that people still have that subconscious reaction to get out of the way of the horse...So it makes a good tool of intimidation, also horses are less likely to cause injury than a water cannon as they simply move a person aside not knock them off of their feet.

The horses also have a lot of tradition behind them in most departments. The Pennsylvania State Police when formed were an exclusively mounted police force. Their numbers were small so they focused heavily and commanding a presence. Their uniforms and horse were all black, and I believe there was also a height requirement for the horse and officer. They earned the nickname of "The Black Hussars" from Hungarian immigrants. There also accounts of one or two officers breaking up large riots of 40-100 people. I think the largest amount officers used at any early mine strike or riot was no more than 20 officers on horse back, and they managed to disperse and control crowds into the 1,000's.

In terms of the mics, since you are potentially being used in riot situations you'd want it to be where it couldn't be ripped off.

[Newfoundking]

Hey Mike, just reading the post before that one with the LAPD....


Who is busier the FDNY or The LAFD( or possibly LACoFD)

~Cheers
Newfoundking

[MikesPhotos]

Hey Mike, just reading the post before that one with the LAPD....


Who is busier the FDNY or The LAFD( or possibly LACoFD)

~Cheers
Newfoundking

FDNY hands down, but then again it's like comparing apples to oranges:

FDNY # of Sworn Personnel: 14,000+
LAFD # of Sworn Personnel: 3,500+

FDNY # of Stations: 240+
LAFD # of Stations: 106

New York Population: 8,000,000+
Los Angeles Population: 3,800,000+

They also have a lot of older construction then LA city does since many of our buildings have been retrofitted/replaced due to earthquakes and other safety concerns.

[Commander Rasseru]

FDNY hands down, but then again it's like comparing apples to oranges:

FDNY # of Sworn Personnel: 14,000+
LAFD # of Sworn Personnel: 3,500+

FDNY # of Stations: 240+
LAFD # of Stations: 106

New York Population: 8,000,000+
Los Angeles Population: 3,800,000+

They also have a lot of older construction then LA city does since many of our buildings have been retrofitted/replaced due to earthquakes and other safety concerns.

LA needs another 100 years till they start building up also.... I guess?

[Sirius7dk]

What is the Los Angeles Regional Common Operational Picture Program response vehicle being used for?

i dont think that its being used to see satellite tv in the coffee breaks on very long tasks?

do they record tv from accidents and fires to give it to the media, so you can control that the medias are not going to close to the action?

From the your latest uploaded pictures ( http://forum.emergen...h...ost&p=60497 ) it looks like the picture program car is from the police, but on your webpage you have an LACoFD ( http://mikesphotos.u...h-2008/LARCOPP/ ) picture program car so do all departments have such a car?


EDIT: just had a closer look at the google results that made me find the LACoFD car, and found the answer to my questions here: http://www.officer.com/print/Law-Enforceme...re/1$37896

and looks like i was a bit wrong with the telly idea, as it is a command vehicle

[MikesPhotos]

What is the Los Angeles Regional Common Operational Picture Program response vehicle being used for?

i dont think that its being used to see satellite tv in the coffee breaks on very long tasks?

do they record tv from accidents and fires to give it to the media, so you can control that the medias are not going to close to the action?

From the your latest uploaded pictures ( http://forum.emergen...h...ost&p=60497 ) it looks like the picture program car is from the police, but on your webpage you have an LACoFD picture program car so do all departments have such a car?

You can find quite a bit of information from google re:the LARCOPP system so I'm not going to write too much about it. But here are some key quotes that will give you a basic idea.

""This vehicle is designed to go out and gather Intel and feed it back to the decision makers so they can decide the best course of action. Hypothetically the more solid information they have the better they will be able to mitigate an incident."

"Allows on-site incident commanders to electronically gather data and transmit it to those at off-site emergency operations centers (EOCs) and to other agencies, jurisdictions and disciplines."

"LARCOPP can provide information to all levels of that structure and from each incident site, thereby giving command staff the "ground truth" from each location. Each bit of information gathered by LARCOPP thus becomes a piece of the puzzle that, when put together, becomes the common operating picture."

" The LARCOPP Portal is easily the most innovative technology and the one that will provide real-time situational awareness and a common operating picture. It is a secure, Web-based platform that can transmit real-time video of an incident via deployable wireless broadband digital cameras, through a video uplink from a news agency camera or from footage shot by a public safety agency's helicopter. It allows for the transmission of perimeter information, street maps, aerial views of the site, traffic routes, emergency vehicle access and a host of GIS data. It lets commanders locate, track, and move manpower and equipment resources."

"The system works in real time, sending the same information to other responding agencies, off-site EOCs, or if needed, to the state EOC or the DHS National Operations Center in Washington, D.C."

"The technology, known as AntaresX, has been installed in agency SUVs or mobile command posts. Attached to the top of the vehicle is a 1.2-meter dish that sends information via satellite. The satellite component makes the AntaresX technology extraordinarily robust because it uses a system powerful enough to transmit through rain, smoke or heavy cloud cover.'

"In its first phase the LARCOPP suite of hardware and software has been installed in eight California law enforcement and fire agency vehicles (either SUVs or mobile command posts) and two operations centers. There are plans to add 19 vehicles in the next two years and to add the technology to other area operations centers."

" can disseminate mapping, as well as video, information to aid in the evacuation of the area and transport of the injured to nearby hospitals."

"In addition to the Los Angeles city and county fire, police and sheriff's departments, the project has included the Long Beach police and fire departments, the Glendale PD, which is the third largest city in the operational area behind Los Angeles and Long Beach, and the Pomona Police Department, located on the eastern edge of the county."


Bassically it gives the incident commanders an on scene host of tools that are all networked and linked in a small portable package instead of a huge command post vehicle. During the pomona earthquake, it was used to take photos and videos of damage and feed it back to the EOCs for damage assesment and mitigation.

Mike

[billyfromhill]

Sounds like the SatCom vehicle from EM2.

[firefighter111]

Mike, noticed that the LAFD picked up a segrave engine for airport use. Is this because segrave was the lowest bid, or was there some reason for going with segrave?
LAFD segrave engine