330 replies to this topic

[helljumper51]

Fair enough, but you nfk buy the first round of drinks.

[MikeyPI]

Hoppah ultimately summed up both of our feelings fairly well, everyone would like to blame any one particular incident for what has transpired and regardless to what is said, will continue to feel this way.. The fact is, Dyson and I while having an dispute, that we ultimately managed to discuss and resolve with relatively little pain between ourselves (remember Dyson, the NY mod stuff isnt open-sourced so you'll have to modify your credits to denote them sep. of the LA stuff since they still require permissions to use), the underlying issues don't just stop with he and I alone.  The reality is this issue runs much much deeper than any two parties and won't be resolved just by two parties discussing their own problems between one another.  The issue and the resulting aftermath have brought to light things that people have taken to heart that must be addressed as a community as a whole.

 

This community over time has slowly moved away from the middle ground of respecting the authors of content (regardless to if you agree with them and their choices for permissions/credits or not) and has become a place where not only is it acceptable to take content from others, but in fact is expected to be perfectly fine to do so.  From the author's perspective it was thought to be a "fringe" element that thought this way, but as time has progressed it has became more mainstream to feel this way, and now the authors are taking notice of it.  Add in the fact that when someone attempts to stand up for what they worked on, people not only get defensive but also downright hostile with regards to the original authors, instead of holding the individual who ultimately was in the wrong by taking their stuff, it is not hard to understand why they're feeling how they are.

 

Love it or leave it, in order for this community to function as a whole, there does have to be some level of respect for those who provide the content, as much as those who wish to use it, and ultimately those who wish to consume the end products.  As with anything, when things get too far out of control, it requires a "push" back from something that ultimately took months, if not years to degrade to the worsened state it is in.  Nothing happens overnight, but ultimately when things go too far out of hand, someone has to step in and try to set them back to the middle, so ultimately I cannot say NFK was wrong with the push to try to fix the credit debacles of late and hopefully restore some confidence in author's rights to content they put the time into creating it..

 

As a whole, lately it seems that it's "no big deal" or "minor" transgressions in the eyes of most, I can tell you from an author's perspective that has taken their time to put it into the work that is sourced or flat out taken it is not so minor to them, you may disagree with their viewpoint but you should at least respect their right to have that perspective, and ultimately it is their choice how to handle such transgressions.  To not only minimize their concerns, but also degrade, dismiss, and ultimately bash the users who wish to have their rights protected when it is their choice to take the time to create the things the community as a whole should get to enjoy is ultimately what offends these people so much.  Most creators are not that extreme with their feelings on content, most share with the caveat they are appropriately credited for their efforts, some require that you ask permission before you use their content, there are even some that flat out do not wish it to be used in a public release, in any case though it is that author's choice how they wish to handle credit and their choices should be respected (even if not agreed with).  When the author's are not respected as they should be, it gives them little incentive to continue to contribute anything at all, if they know that they will receive no recognition for their effort, and ultimately while it may be a hobby, people still wish to be recognized for what they do.

 

People like to say that "well it happens everywhere, so why should you expect different" as an excuse, yeah well crime happens everywhere too, it doesnt mean it should be an accepted practice and just allow it to continue to happen.  What was once a "fringe" group of people who had no qualms about stepping on people's toes to get to their own end has become more accepted and mainstream, ultimately the content makers have taken notice and wish it to cease to be accepted.  If the consumers and the creators cannot come to an understanding and rectify this situation, and decide that just because something happens doesnt mean it's right that it does, they have absolutely no incentive to keep going.  Just because something happens does not mean it's ethical nor acceptable, there was a time here on this forum when it was unacceptable to do things intentionally, I for one am not speaking of the accidental omissions of crediting, but the times when someone is flat out denying any wrongdoing but ultimately turns out to be guilty. There must be a case-by-case basis applied to each scenario, but if people take the time to document as they go and genuinely put in the time to keep track of who owns what and follow their permissions, it will go a long way towards ending these issues.  Think of how much time it takes to ask for something and/or credit it vs the time necessary to have to make the same thing yourself.

 

If this community as a whole cannot cease the conduct that is currently going on, there will be a permanent rift that will result in nobody winning.  The people creating the content will simply move on, thus removing the new features/content that keeps this aged game going, if on the other hand nobody is allowed to use anything at all there will be no future modders to carry on the torch.  Somewhere in the middle lies a resolution that everyone will have to compromise to get to, if people continue to refuse to attempt to reach that compromise there will be nothing new to speak of, nor new people to create new things since there will be no incentive to continue going forth.  Ultimately the choice lies with everyone in this community to cease the bickering and flaming and start working towards a resolution, if nobody is willing to try to do that, you'll get what you want in the form of nothing to look forward to.

 

For my part in it, I would love to see this community reconcile and return to a reasonable standard of respect for one another, but I don't know if that is possible.  As I've already said this issue isnt about any one party or any two parties, it goes to the state of the whole community, unless that community can get a whole lot more civil and a whole lot more responsible there is no way to compromise to an end result.  I ultimately agree with hoopah that we will still be around, but as far as modding goes in it's current state we cannot move forth with this project without recognizing that as it currently stands the mod will not be respected.  As a modder putting in the time we just cannot be comfortable knowing we've invested more time for a project that's likely fate is to be like a lamb to the slaughter to be torn apart from day-1, regardless of the time and effort we've put into it.  Hopefully as we sit back from modding and watch the way things seem right now will slowly change to a more civil environment where there can be some confidence in people respecting the content, and ultimately those who've created it.

[Jakethejake]

I'm not a modder, but isn't that what a "community" is? I'll take the various NY style mods. Honestly, they are the only reason that I still play the game. But they weren't built in a vaccuum. Many different people collaborated to build them. In the end, I feel that the Brooklyn Mod may be the best in the game. I loved the LA Mod, and the various offshoots as well. It seems to me that you guys want to take the "community" out of modding. That is your right to do so. It's your work. Do with it what you will. However, whom are you modding for? Yourselves or the community? Because when the good mods stop, this whole community goes away. Isn't the community the reason why we're here?

I say that all modders come to the understanding that what is being released is for anyone who wants to use it. That saves everyone from reinventing the wheel, and the whole community benefits from it. How good would a Boston Mod look with some of Brooklyn's buildings? Perhaps some of their stuff can be used in your mod as well. Dispatch scripts and extra alarms and such? Ultimately, guys like me embrace the five or six awesome mods. That's what makes the whole community better.

If y'all feel that the Brooklyn team isn't playing fair, then beat them at their own game. Release a better mod with more features. Use their stuff to do so. Hell, Hoppah put this game on the map. Now you're all just gonna up and quit? I don't get it. The rules of the game are changing. I say use these "new rules" to your advantage.

The modding community is all that this series has left. As an American firefighter from the northeast, I can say that the mods are the only thing that tickle my fancy. The newest versions of this game don't do anything for me. When the good mods for this community stop being released, people may eventually lose interest. If this series has run its course, then that's fine. But if you guys are breaking up a good communty over a beef between factions, then that's a shame.

[Newfoundking]

The problem isn't the fights between members or even that content is used in other mods, but it's that the content consistently has been used without permission or credit and claimed as one's own. That's why several authors are nervous about continuing releases when they're likely to have their work re-branded as someone else's. And the fact the community keeps saying this is a non-issue and they are over reacting isn't helping the issue either. If members made it clear they supported an author's right to be credited, the authors would be more inclined to cooperate

[MikeyPI]

If y'all feel that the Brooklyn team isn't playing fair, then beat them at their own game. Release a better mod with more features. Use their stuff to do so. Hell, Hoppah put this game on the map. Now you're all just gonna up and quit? I don't get it. The rules of the game are changing. I say use these "new rules" to your advantage.

I'll overview the rest, we actually have no problem with variety, truth be told most people who just play the mods don't realize that from an author's perspective we actually try to not compare our works, as each and every one has a different intention and ultimately a different intended audience.  Some want that "sandbox" feel, some want to have that "realistic" some go for role-playing, some MP, some target only SP, some want to be closer to the original game's intent.. To each their own as they say, and they all ultimately have a place to exist, but every one of them out there that does exist should at least play by the rules as far as the original content creator's wishes go and ultimately adhere to them (whether they agree with them or not)

 

The fundamental problem is best summed up with your statement that I've highlighted.  The content creators, myself included do not want to just turn around and steal from other's works just to "get even", that isnt what it is ultimately about.  The creators are having a serious problem with the fact that everyone feels the rules are  changing and this is acceptable, most of these people who feel it's acceptable are not the ones putting the time/effort into the new things, so they have no concept of what actually goes into it.  That will never be reconciled, that I'm sure since you really cannot understand something fully if you're not the one doing it, no more than I can speak to being a firefighter and what that entails.  

 

Those of us who are trying to create content are not comfortable with the fact that our content will not be respected in this current environment, knowing full well that it is highly likely to be sent through a chop-shop on the first day it's out there, gives little incentive to carry forth for us.  The  concept of just do onto others as they've done to you does not really apply to us, because ultimately what potential gain do we have if it's largely certain people providing the content, and everyone else taking advantage of it.. We're certainly not going to steal from one another, since most of us are on the same page with what is expected when it comes to permissions/credits.  We as a community must determine what is to be deemed reasonable, but as one of the content creators I can say for myself and my part in it, that I am uncomfortable with people just taking whatever of mine they wish and re-branding it as NFK has said above, that is not only ethically an issue but undermines my effort invested in the first place.

 

Everyone wants to make it out as though everyone wants the content to go into fort knox and that to be the end of it, sad truth is most of us don't even want close to that.  Most of the ones I know out there want to know their work will be respected, their permission requirements and credit requirements met, and they are perfectly happy to go forth.  They do not want people to assume it's okey to just take their content as their own and forget to recognize where it came from in the first place, and worse yet be targeted for standing up for what is rightfully theirs in the process.  As long as this "community" wants to be a community, there has to be a level of mutual respect from all parties involved, while some people deem it unreasonable and would like to just turn the community into a free-for-all where you just take what you want, use it as you want, and don't have to worry about anyone else's credit due, most of the people who have and will in the future provide that custom-content that allows for the progression of the game's evolution won't find that to be in their best interest.  As such, they will likely move onto other things, em4 is not the end-all for modding possibilities, in truth it's actually pretty limiting from a developer's perspective, people can move on and ultimately if the community cannot come to some middle ground on this issue it may be what people are left with.

[TheCHcuky]

Sorry if this is irrelevant to the discussion or has been has asked not to be discussed, but what will happen with the forums now? I saw in a later post that the forums will stay up for a duration of time. With what has been going on is the EMP mod team plan on shutting down the forums anytime soon or will the forums stay up for a while even with Hoppah leaving the mod team?

[Jakethejake]

I think maybe I'm being misperceived. My intention was not to suggest that modders start "stealing" each others' work in a spiteful way, but rather that the community as a whole comes to the understanding that anything released is fair game. If you need an above ground subway system, you shouldn't have to build one from scratch. It should be understood that you can use the Brooklyn teams' subway system. If a modder wants to do a DC mod and needs Seagrave engines and trucks, then the ones that exist can be used. Some of the LA mod offshoots were just changes that guys made to station assignments and things like that. If you are doing a NY style mod, it is silly to think that you would have to either use buildings that belong in LA, or build your own city. Why have to go through all that when there is a template already out there? Need a midmounted Seagrave tower ladder? Great! Someone built one.

I understand that you guys put an awful lot of work into your mods but at this late stage of the game, the mods should be rolling off of the shelves. I'd love to play an LA mod with their newer fireboat and some heavy industry and coastline. Maybe an aerialscope tower ladder or two thrown in for good measure and the need to hook up to hydrants. The only thing that should have to be built is the new fireboat. Everything else should just be piecing things together. There are a million and one mods for this game. To build one from scratch to me seems like doing it the hard way.

Finally, I'm gonna defend Dyson and Raf a bit. I can still remember back years ago when Tut and some other guys were showing their NY Mod. We all know that it never panned out. Dyson actually took the lead to begin making NY style mods. In the beginning, it was buggy as hell, but they kept going until we have what we have now. They've listened to feedback along the way. I don't know how much stuff they "borrowed". I do know that Brooklyn has kept me playing this game. I've been to Brooklyn many times, and I appreciate what they have done. It's a good fun mod to play.

In the end, it's a shame that everyone can't see eye to eye, but it is what it is. Life goes on. Hopefully this isn't the end. If it is, then take a bow. All of you modders have stretched this game far beyond its potential. I certainly have enjoyed hundreds of hours of fun because of your hard work. I certainly appreciate it.

[MikeyPI]

@ thechucky:

The forums as they stand will continue as they are, regardless of the current discussion going on within the community.  Hoppah and I have decided to cease modding for the time being, perhaps permanently depending on how this situation is resolved (if this situation is resolved).  We have a wait and see attitude for resuming the modification, but both of us intend to still be present on this site, just not in a modding capacity as of this moment.  The site it's self and the forums will stay up regardless of recent events.  What we cannot predict is how everyone will proceed forward, and ultimately that is up to the community as a whole to iron out, not any one or two members.

 

@jakethejake

Ultimately it may not be your intentions to come off as though it is "stealing", but that tends to be the end-result with open-sourced content.  What people ultimately are up in arms about is the fact that they have no say what so ever with regard to the content that they did put the time into, and ultimately it should be their say into how their content is to be used.. Should someone wish to "give it to the people" and allow them to do what they so desire, no credit conditions at all, that would be their choice.. That being said, those who wish for nobody to touch a thing at all should be respected as well, ultimately everyone has their own intentions and desires, but regardless those who do the work deserve the credit and respect when it comes to what their wishes are.

 

Perhaps it would serve the community to have everything be just take what you want, or it could deter new content from being created when someone puts so much time into something to have it just re-used 400 times and ultimately forgotten where it came from.  As I've said people seem to be going to one extreme or the other with their views, either it's give everyone everything no matter what, or nobody gets anything.  As far as the people I know are involved, they want neither of those scenarios but something far more moderate in the middle, which ultimately is their right to want that, especially if it's their content involved.  

 

The mods never really ever "rolled off the shelves" and never really would, if you mean by a new reskin mod with absolutely no new dynamics or content added, merely the same items that are already available mixed and matched together and wishing to call that a full mod, then yes that would be the end result.  Never before in this community has more content been available for use in the history of this game, never before was all of the content open to a free-for-all take what you want process either.. There has always been a respect for the authors of the content and ultimately respect for their wishes (with the exception of a fringe group).  

 

Without the respect for the new content guys, there arent any new or interesting things to be made, so everything will get repetitive and "worn out", not unlike the original game it's self, but at the same time without having some system of permissions/credits, no new guys can start out either.  Everyone recognizes these facts, but the people making new content wish to have their rights to pick and choose how their content is to be used/credited, and ultimately given the time they take to make the content I believe personally that to be only fair.  Should someone wish to allow anyone to use their content without so much as crediting them, that is their choice, but it is also the choice of the guy who wants to have restrictions and conditions to have those as well.. This is what compromise is all about, and ultimately while many may not agree, the people making the stuff should have more say in how it's handled than the end-user does.

 

As I said the Dyson situation to me is over, as long as he rectifies the issues with regard to what he "borrowed" to use your term by either crediting me for it and noting where it came from, as that content has a restriction to simply ask for my permission to use it, so it has to have that.  Or, alternatively he can remove that content if he should desire, either way does not matter to me.  The part that seems lost in translation is the fact that it even came to pass that the content was where it should not have been in the first place.  That is to my eyes is the mistake everyone is making in trying to defend the situation, they took some shortcuts they should not have, and it's a shame and fairly easy to fix, but to dismiss the fact for whatever justifications anyone wishes to come up with, shows a disregard to the original author of the content (in this case myself as well as others).  As it stands, that is what most of the original content creators are concerned in regard to, because as it happens more often, and it becomes more acceptable, they are realizing that their effort simply put is marginalized for the sake of having more content faster and if it can happen to one, it will happen to others as well.

 

As I said people have to come to a compromise in this situation, as it stands neither side will "win" if it is to be an extreme on either side of this debate that must be right.  In compromise nobody wins, but in gridlock nobody wins either, there is going to be no "winner" or "loser" unless the same impasse continues as it is, then everyone ultimately will lose as a result of this. Everyone seems to think that it is impossible to gain access to content the "proper way" (which is to ask for it from the authors where required, and to credit them) as opposed to the reality that it is far easier to ask someone about using something or reading the documentation included in the original package to see what the conditions are instead of having to make it from the ground up.  Nobody is saying that nothing should be shared at all, but that it should be completely at the author's discretion as to how they wish to proceed with the things that they've worked on and how they want to share it/not share it, not a mutiny situation where people get out the pitchforks to try to force them into giving control of their content up.  That simply isnt fair no matter how you slice it.

[Jakethejake]

I see your point. Here is my proposal. Start a file cache of things that are open for modders. Anything in the cache is fair game. Anything not in the cache is off limits and is considered stealing, and subject to repurcussions. That way there is no grey area.

[helljumper51]

I think maybe I'm being misperceived. My intention was not to suggest that modders start "stealing" each others' work in a spiteful way, but rather that the community as a whole comes to the understanding that anything released is fair game. If you need an above ground subway system, you shouldn't have to build one from scratch. It should be understood that you can use the Brooklyn teams' subway system. If a modder wants to do a DC mod and needs Seagrave engines and trucks, then the ones that exist can be used. Some of the LA mod offshoots were just changes that guys made to station assignments and things like that. If you are doing a NY style mod, it is silly to think that you would have to either use buildings that belong in LA, or build your own city. Why have to go through all that when there is a template already out there? Need a midmounted Seagrave tower ladder? Great! Someone built one.

I understand that you guys put an awful lot of work into your mods but at this late stage of the game, the mods should be rolling off of the shelves. I'd love to play an LA mod with their newer fireboat and some heavy industry and coastline. Maybe an aerialscope tower ladder or two thrown in for good measure and the need to hook up to hydrants. The only thing that should have to be built is the new fireboat. Everything else should just be piecing things together. There are a million and one mods for this game. To build one from scratch to me seems like doing it the hard way.

Finally, I'm gonna defend Dyson and Raf a bit. I can still remember back years ago when Tut and some other guys were showing their NY Mod. We all know that it never panned out. Dyson actually took the lead to begin making NY style mods. In the beginning, it was buggy as hell, but they kept going until we have what we have now. They've listened to feedback along the way. I don't know how much stuff they "borrowed". I do know that Brooklyn has kept me playing this game. I've been to Brooklyn many times, and I appreciate what they have done. It's a good fun mod to play.

In the end, it's a shame that everyone can't see eye to eye, but it is what it is. Life goes on. Hopefully this isn't the end. If it is, then take a bow. All of you modders have stretched this game far beyond its potential. I certainly have enjoyed hundreds of hours of fun because of your hard work. I certainly appreciate it.

Jake that is how is was working. And it was fine because we all respected each others work and gave credit. Your missing the point we are trying to make. We do not want to keep our work behind a vault and say no one can use it. Please use my models, use my buildings. But if you release your mod and say yup I made these and I put in the work, then that is stealing. That is our point. We want people to use our work but we also want to stop people from taking stuff and claiming it is theres. That is what permissions are meant to be for. So I don't come on here and release a mod with hoppah fire station and say that I built it. By not giving credit that is what these people are saying without qords. And that is wrong. That is what we want changed, because I started here several years ago with no skills and I worked hard to teach myself and learn. Then I took those skills and did my own work. I earned that. Now there are people coming in like I was, no skills but want to do something. But instead of working to learn why and how to do it, they take it and call it their own.

[MikeyPI]

Your proposal isnt a bad idea for true things that are open to take as-is, but you'd be amazed how little content that ultimately is, which is where the line kind of got lost.. For the vast majority of the authors it actually comes down to crediting them where it's due.  I'm one of them that simply asks to you to contact me to use my content, and most the time I am willing to grant that permission for use with the condition of crediting me for what you use.. It is actually very very small minority that outright want nobody using their stuff at all, under any conditions at all.  But in each case they should have their rights to choose what to do with it.

 

Perhaps there is room to have totally open-sourced content represented, that is a very easy option to add a directory in the download center/and create the subcat on the forum for this...  Depending on how people feel about it, that can be done relatively fast.  Ultimately though, I don't believe there will be that much content provided for it, because as I said the sticking point for most people is that they want to be credited for their work. That is kinda where the rub lies in the whole thing.  And ultimately we can't have people who've taken someone else's work, reworked it a bit and in turn trying to put it into the open-source department, that would be just as unfair as stealing it outright.. 

 

If someone genuinely makes their content and wants to make it totally open, don't credit at all and all of that stuff, that is their right, but the other people's rights have to be respected as well.. I just wish people would document their mods better, and ultimately that people would read the documentation to figure out who's stuff is who's if they want to use it.  It'd save alotta headaches which have resulted from missing such a minor step.. Trust me when I say it is much much easier to read the file, pm the guy and work out how I can use it rather than having to make it from the ground up, so if thats what they ask me to do I'd rather do that than have nothing at all to use.

[Jakethejake]

Well I agree that dudes can't just take stuff without crediting the author. That's just wrong.

[MikeyPI]

It is indeed just wrong from our viewpoint, but it seems alotta people want to do that right now, it isnt quite the same as you know I got it from X mod and they got it from Y mod and Y mod got it from god knows where, so it gets lost in translation as it goes along.. In most these cases it's been that someone directly takes it from the source and doesnt credit the source of the stuff, and that's a problem..  An accidental omission is pretty easy to fix, but some people out there right now are intentionally out of either being lazy or just negligent are failing to do the due process to ensure that the right people are credited for the right things that they did.

 

When the documentation is out of whack in mods, it's what ultimately causes a good number of these problems, because what starts off like u know itchie made this truck, it then by about 3 mods in is completely lost that it came from him in the first place, so he isnt getting credit due at all for his work anymore, that is a problem.  And the way people are treating this is that many out there right now feel it's no big deal that these people are not being credited, and that their permission/credit requirements are not met.  That is the part that is the shame, because it was never that way on this forum before, and it should not be now.  Most of the modders want to get credit for the hard work they do, and in my eyes with the time it takes to do the stuff from the ground-up, it isnt unreasonable for them to get their due credit that is being used by others.

 

Most the time in dealing with these issues it should just come down to you did something wrong (intentional or not), here is what the author wants done to fix it, apologize for the mistake and move forward... When people get defensive and flat out deny any wrongdoing and hem and haw and create a big stink over it, it not only makes the issue more complicated, but lines up the trolls looking for an excuse to misbehave, and they do..  What could have been settled with a "you know I think my credits are in order, but if I made a mistake please advise me of it and what I must do to correct this error so we can move on" ends up being a big stink that results in tons of time wasted by everyone involved, and alotta ruffled feathers for all parties involved.  Most the time, most people just want to be credited appropriately for what they did do, take a look at the original LA mod documentation, it lists everyone and what they were responsible for, that is what people really should be doing.  Unfortunately most are not, many as of late are not even providing any documentation for their mods what so ever, which in a reskin mod simply should not be happening since they got the content from somewhere.

 

Thats the point of trying to get people to willingly update their readmes to be as clear and concise as possible to list everyone who did what and what they did... It ensures the right people are credited for what they did do, especially if someone sees something in a mod they want to use, but it is not the original author's mod they still know who to credit properly.  I hope people will start to come to this way of thinking since it will ultimately benefit the community as a whole if everyone is credited clearly in every mod.  It will take some time for everyone to do this, but it serves the community better to have better documentation and hopefully prevent mis-communications and credit mistakes.  It is far less time to have to document clearly than to have to redo all the content in a mod, I'd go with option A if I had alotta people's content in my mod rather than shooting myself in the foot having to remake it all since I was not crediting people that I should.

Deze post is bewerkt door MikeyPI: 19 juni 2015 - 09:18
Added last paragraph.

[jamnj88]

I agree with itch. If you look at most mods the main work has been done by a select few. Now all we will see is reskins.

We need to make a mod together I have an idea on what I want to do. It a mod we talked about doing back in the day

[Jakethejake]

EM4 has been out for a while. From my standpoint, there are only a few things left to perfect in this game. Building interiors, interior fires, ladderable floors, and the fire mechanics. Some of the later versions have addressed some of these issues, but as a whole, the series really hasn't progressed to add these enhancements. So where does that leave us?

From where I sit, most mods will be reskins, or a variation of a reskin mod. For those who kill Dyson and Raff, understand that they have added some things that have kept this iteration of this series going. Unless someone comes up with some ways to get inside of buildings and fight fires, or keep the fires from turning on/off, all there's really left are reskins of the stuff that we have.

[helljumper51]

If you believe that then there is no point for any mods anymore right? Why should I build more models and buildings if all people want are reskins? So thank you for saving mine and mikey and hoppah time.

[itchboy]

EM4 has been out for a while. From my standpoint, there are only a few things left to perfect in this game. Building interiors, interior fires, ladderable floors, and the fire mechanics. Some of the later versions have addressed some of these issues, but as a whole, the series really hasn't progressed to add these enhancements. So where does that leave us?

From where I sit, most mods will be reskins, or a variation of a reskin mod. For those who kill Dyson and Raff, understand that they have added some things that have kept this iteration of this series going. Unless someone comes up with some ways to get inside of buildings and fight fires, or keep the fires from turning on/off, all there's really left are reskins of the stuff that we have.

Have you forgotten all those vehicle bases I did, those Fords, Chevy's, Dodge's, Ambulances, Random light equipment packages, and my own Los Angeles Mod?

 

How about the Montana mod which I've worked on contains the first functioning (albeit buggy) American style volunteer Fire Department gameplay?

 

The way you say it makes it seem like Dyson and Raf are the only people who have made 'innovative' things here.

 

How about MikeyPI's NYC mod? It has SO MUCH new content, over a hundred genuine new models, a custom map, and progressive gameplay, which no other mod has.

 

There are plenty of other things that have been done for this aging mod. Please be more open minded about it.

 

If anything, NYC2.0 would have kept this series going way more than any other mod (even mine) could. But unfortunately, the community has decided it doesnt need that mod, so the moderators have just ended it.

 

 

If you believe that then there is no point for any mods anymore right? Why should I build more models and buildings if all people want are reskins? So thank you for saving mine and mikey and hoppah time.

Ey, don't forget me. I value my time just like you guys do. I have my own set of models and buildings I wanted to share but right now, naahhh, I think I'll just give it to other content creators such as yourself.

[Turk_WLF]

Helljumper51,

 

If you believe that everyone wants to just wants reskinned models & buildings. I got news for you, I'm still waiting for your Emergency! mod WIP that you posted couple years ago.

 

I might be one of the rare end users that is total grateful for all of the time the Mod Masters put into their mods.

[itchboy]

Helljumper51,

 

If you believe that everyone wants to just wants reskinned models & buildings. I got news for you, I'm still waiting for your Emergency! mod WIP that you posted couple years ago.

 

I might be one of the rare end users that is total grateful for all of the time the Mod Masters put into their mods.

He doesn't believe that. He believes that once content creators like him, me and the moderators leave, that is what this site will become - all reskin mods.

 

He has a life and a family, and he is in the Army (paratrooper I assume because of user name) so he probably got sent to the Middle East for a couple years and only was able to come back to his home now.

 

People need to remember that we got lives too ya know. I have college, clinical depression, rejection issues and semi abusive parents. MikeyPI has some things that I am not allowed to say to avoid doxxing and NFK has some too.

 

Thank you for actually being grateful for us. You're one of a rare breed.

[Turk_WLF]

Itchboy,

 

Thanks for clueing me in but one thing that makes me part of the rare breed is my hobby of 3D modeling and I spent over 6 years just a single model, so I do have some insight what it take to do a mod. I understand that everyone has lives outside of EM4 & Issues I'm no different as I have Cerebral Palsy and limited use of one hand.

 

I have had friends that told me that I should sale my models or go work for a company that makes whatever I'm modeling but what they don't know or understand is the number of hours/days that I have put into the model and becomes like one of your children.