61 replies to this topic

[met police999]

Yea forgot to mention that haha

[SparkyTheGamer]

Mmm, so what are the gun restrictions in the UK? DO you need a permit? Is it easy to obtain an illegal weapon easily? In the US you have dealers right around the corner where ever you go

 

I give major props to the police of England, in my mind they are 10x better than the police in the US, as all you have to do over here is aim a weapon/taser at a suspect and they will go down. But, in England you have to drag the suspect to the ground, watch this video - 

 

**BE ADVISED, GRAPHIC VIDEO ONCE AGAIN.* 

 

Spoiler

 

No one in this video has died, it is just graphic in what has been done to a Police Officer.

[met police999]

It is very strict and there's a pretty thorough background check you have to keep ammunition under lock and key in one part of the house and the firearm itself in another under lock and key its strict but affective your waiting a good few years until you actually get your license as well. It is also hard to get one illegally most gun owners in the UK are farmers anyway.

 

EDIT: Just something that irks me is that you said England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland along with England make up the UK, unless you were being specific to England then i apologize.

[SparkyTheGamer]

It is very strict and there's a pretty thorough background check you have to keep ammunition under lock and key in one part of the house and the firearm itself in another under lock and key its strict but affective your waiting a good few years until you actually get your license as well. It is also hard to get one illegally most gun owners in the UK are farmers anyway.

 

EDIT: Just something that irks me is that you said England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland along with England make up the UK, unless you were being specific to England then i apologize.

 

The UK in general, they all don't carry weapons, init? If they don't carry a sidearm they got my mad respect.

[Fred03]

Just like correctional officers in the US (they don't get the respect they deserve)

[met police999]

No the only police services currently armed are the Ministry of Defence police (Basically military police),Civil Nuclear Constabulary(Nuclear power stations) and the Police Service of Northern Ireland however the PSNI are slowly unarming officers (they are armed due to the threats of the IRA etc)

[randomperson139]

And the armed response units in each police force...

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[MikeyPI]

Yeah uhm, they've had policia cars broken into and weapons stolen.. The whole "lock" mechanisms are a deterrent but that does not mean it's impossible to jack a gun from a trunk.  

[Hoppah]

**BE ADVISED, GRAPHIC VIDEO ONCE AGAIN.* 

Spoiler

Respect to those police officers who have to deal with that. However, it does kinda shows how defenseless unarmed police officers actually are. The ones in the video are panicking (especially the one calling it in) and to me it just looks like they weren't trained to deal with a situation like this. Why the hell wasn't the suspect restrained before they put him in the police vehicle? Even before they found the drugs, one of the officers thought that 'something wasn't right'. Anyway, those police officers basically relied on backup once it escalated . Even funnier, you would expect that bystanders would provide help, especially if nobody apparently owns guns in the UK.
 

story

I like what you said and I nearly tend to agree. However it does raise questions. Especially regarding this:

"If the same incident was to happen in the UK, almost exactly the same response would have happened but with unarmed and then armed officers as they arrived. This was a murder that turned into a barricaded-suspect situation, he set fire to the house and one could suppose he was trying to start a victim-precipitated suicide by cop by engaging the police. One could argue that the deterrent of armed officers prevented him from fleeing the scene but that seems unlikely."

I'm aware the suspect in the video in the first post probably had no intentions to flee. Just like most shootings, maintaining a perimeter is usually the main objective to prevent escalation. But how they hell can you safely maintain a fully secured perimeter with unarmed police officers if you're facing armed suspects? You cannot imo. Alot can happen between the call for armed backup (by police) until arrival of said armed backup. With the knowledge of facing unarmed police officers for at least 10 minutes, I'd take my chances if I was a suspect with a gun and I wanted to live free.

Anyway, its an interesting subject to talk about. I'm sure the whole unarmed police policy works fine in the UK, but I'm just constantly wondering if they're really willing to take those extra risks, which may result in deaths which could've been prevented.

[SparkyTheGamer]

Respect to those police officers who have to deal with that. However, it does kinda shows how defenseless unarmed police officers actually are. The ones in the video are panicking (especially the one calling it in) and to me it just looks like they weren't trained to deal with a situation like this. Why the hell wasn't the suspect restrained before they put him the police vehicle? That's asking for an escalation/an attempt to run. Anyway, those police officers basically relied on backup once it escalated . Even funnier, you would expect that bystanders would provide help, especially if nobody apparently owns guns in the UK.

 

Anyway, its an interesting subject to talk about. I'm sure the whole unarmed police deal works fine in the UK, but I'm just constantly wondering if they're really willing to take those extra risks, which may result in deaths which could've been prevented

 

 

Bystanders in the United States rarely help either, I find it kinda poopy when they don't, even if they are just sitting there fighting the Officer - if I seen that I would jump in and push the suspect over and attempt to pin him to the ground and help the Officer, and you can clearly see in that video that the one officer was bleeding very badly, so they needed help. There was a person with a dog behind the incident, I would've thought that the dog would've gone mental .

 

I also agree with the deaths being  prevented, and I think it would be better if cops in England had some sort of sidearm, cuz' as they say in the video the suspect did have a key in his hand which was used to cause the injuries to the Officer that had a concussion and had to be transported. If that has happened in the United States a Officer's sidearm would have been drawn and they would've been yelling at the suspect to drop the key as it is a dangerous weapon and it could kill somebody. Here, if there is a danger to the public and/or an Officer's life, they draw their sidearms and will shoot at the suspect to injure them and make them drop said weapon. 

[randomperson139]

Even funnier, you would expect that bystanders would provide help, especially if nobody apparently owns guns in the UK.

You would expect help from bystanders, but this is something that doesn't happen in the UK unfortunately. It's exactly the same when it comes to EMS calls. The majority of the time in the UK, people will do nothing if someone where to say collapse in front of them. They would just carry on walking, or just stand there!


As to UK police being armed, it is something that has been debated many times in the past, and will be debated again and again. I think it always comes down to a question of is it necessary, when incidents involving firearms are fortunately rare. Yes, there have been deaths which may or may not have been avoided, but things like that do not happen very often at all.
And then there's the argument that arming police officers might lead to more criminals being armed and therefore more gun crime/ violent crimes.
Although, more and more police officers are being routinely issued tasers. I know they aren't much when it comes to an armed suspect, but it's a start!

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[SparkyTheGamer]

cuz' as they say in the video the suspect did have a key in his hand which was used to cause the injuries to the Officer that had a concussion and had to be transported. If that has happened in the United States a Officer's sidearm would have been drawn and they would've been yelling at the suspect to drop the key as it is a dangerous weapon and it could kill somebody. Here, if there is a danger to the public and/or an Officer's life, they draw their sidearms and will shoot at the suspect to injure them and make them drop said weapon. 

 

Like I said above, if this were to happen a sidearm would be drawn in the US and if the suspect proceeded to stab the officer in the face like that he would've been shot and he would've been detained. Police Officers are taught to shoot if they are being presented with a suspect with a weapon, I.E a knife being pulled on an officer or another weapon being pulled out, if that happens a PO has every right to shoot to injure. I think this is how it should be in England, but as you said, it is debated all the time.

[Hoppah]

As to UK police being armed, it is something that has been debated many times in the past, and will be debated again and again.

Indeed, it will always be debated, even if they ever issue guns to police officers in the UK. It remains a matter of weighing the pros and cons. The investment of issuing guns to officers to save extra lives, increase defensibility and to deal with certain situations more effectively versus the risks of innocent people getting shot, trigger happy officers or weapons being stolen and/or used against officers. The latter happened in the Netherlands in 2011, resulting in the death of a police officer who was killed with his own gun which was taken from him during a struggle. There's no perfect solution and there never will be. Tasers aren't that non-lethal as they are supposed to be and batons can be used to beat someone to death too. Even cuffs can be used against officers effectively. If the suspect is better than the officer, the officer will probably not win. No matter if guns are involved or not. :>

[SparkyTheGamer]

Indeed, it will always be debated, even if they ever issue guns to police officers in the UK. It remains a matter of weighing the pros and cons. The investment of issuing guns to officers to save extra lives, increase defensibility and to deal with certain situations more effectively versus the risks of innocent people getting shot, trigger happy officers or weapons being stolen and/or used against officers. The latter happened in the Netherlands in 2011, resulting in the death of a police officer who was killed with his own gun which was taken from him during a struggle. There's no perfect solution and there never will be. Even tasers aren't that non-lethal as they are supposed to be and batons can be used to beat someone to death too.

 

Well, don't they have the straps around the holster of their weapon? This way it is hard to unclip when you are tussling around with a Officer who is probably 10x stronger than you?

[MikeyPI]

I don't shot to injure that's a movie/TV thing... in reality you get to the point of firing a firearm you're going in it with the intent of neutralizing the subject, not just shooting them in the arm hoping they drop the weapon. Yes there are simple clasps that hold a firearm in the holster, it can be undone very quickly if someone knows how it snaps on... Someone with experience with a holster can get it done very fast/easy... Cops are not superman contrary to most people's belief, it is in strength of numbers that they tend to overwhelm a suspect, one on one a cop is just the same as the guy they are up against, it all comes down to the individual, and what they are willing to do to said officer.

[Hoppah]

Officer who is probably 10x stronger than you?

Then why could 2 officers BARELY restrain a suspect in that video?

It's horeshite. You'd cry in shame if you'd find out physical requirements to be a police officer. The officers in the vid you posted earlier for example: the skinnier one with the glasses didn't appear to look very strong. Other than holding on 'to dear life' to his cuffs, he didn't do anything. The other 'fattier' one appeared stronger but probably couldn't outrun the suspect if he'd got away. Even the suspect wasn't that build but he did a fairly good job on fighting them off. Otherwise the video wouldn't be that 'shocking' right? Then you have a lot of older police officers (50+ yo) too, who all have to deal with the effects of ageing. Most police officers aren't body builders at all. Because of their vest and belt they just usually appear heavy build and/or stronger in public.

And yes a gun holster usually has wraps. But that doesn't mean much if the suspect is still stronger than the officer and you're already engaged in hand-combat.

[SparkyTheGamer]

You'd cry in shame if you'd find out physical requirements to be a police officer.

 

I think there should be more strict requirements, like you have to be strong, can't be fat and eat donuts all the time (lawl). Theres one cop around where I live, everyone is scared of him cuz he is bulked up

[MikeyPI]

Some of the most intimidating people I've ever ran into are insanely small build, but the things they can do if need be is downright horrifying.. Size aint everything, its about knowing how to use your size and leverage.

[SparkyTheGamer]

Some of the most intimidating people I've ever ran into are insanely small build, but the things they can do if need be is downright horrifying.. Size aint everything, its about knowing how to use your size and leverage.

 

Yeh, the cop that I am talking about is muscular, and yanno' sometimes the more muscle you have - you may be stronger, but it is hard for you to move/run. 

[MikeyPI]

Sad reality is that more muscle usually doesnt lead to greater endurance, to feed those muscles takes more oxygen/energy.. Tis why you look at runners, swimmers, climbers, they tend to be wiry in build... The larger framed counterparts simply don't have the required endurance, yeah they'll relocate a car for ya nicely but it's a one and done type of deal.