33 replies to this topic

[Ropie58]

Wouldn't it be nice if we all put in an e-mail request to Sixteen Tons Entertainment to make a LA-Mod for the game themselves? I did so myself several weeks ago through the "support" site of Sixteen Tons Entertainment. Unfortunately I never got any reply. 

 

My reasons to help Sixteen Tons Entertainment understand why the LA-Mod is so much wanted by so many players, were the following:

 

- The game is NOT only for the German market anymore, although originally created for it in the first place.

- EM-4 became extremely popular in various European countries since the modder "Hoppah" created the LA-Mod for EM-4.

- Ever since the first rumours about the development of the complete new EM-5 version, over the years players were asking and wondering about the possibillity of again playing with a LA-Mod, showing the polularity of the LA-Mod.

- Although a lot of players are enthousiastic about the complete make-over of the game, almost everyone is crying out for the development of a new LA-Mod.

- Just because of the LA-Mod, Sixteen Tons Entertainment understood more than anything that players would like to be able to mod the game and made this possible in EM-5.

- Since the knowledge of creating and/or modding of the game is best known to Sixteen Tons Entertainment, it would be most appreciated if Sixteen Tons Entertainment would build the LA-Mod themselves, as an upgrade, to meet up with the crying wish of the players for this mod. I am most certain that the creators are familiar with this whish considering the fact that this is an constant issue on multiple EM forums for several years now. 

- Doing so, makes me certain that this would increase again the polularity, as well als the sales numbers, of EM-5.
 

Like I said, I wrote my e-mail through the "support" site of Sixteen Tons Entertainment but I am not sure if this was the best way to do.

 

My request to you: If any of you would know a more specific e-mail address of Sixteen Tons Entertainment to put in this request for the making of an LA-Mod, please let us know. Maybe, if we all sent our e-mail, we would have have a LA-Mod sooner than we'd hope for, or at least receive a reply whit the future plans of Sixteen Tons Entertainment regarding EM-5 and a possible (?) LA-Mod.

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert,

Netherlands.

[godra]

Just a piece of good advice: Don't waste your time with writing such mails. Sixteen Tons Entertainment won't be interested in it. There's no chance that this wish will ever come true. If you want the LA modification, you'll have to create it on your own. If the DLC is released, you'll have all what you need for it: The editor, the mod loader and the scripting system. The modding sytem might be quite complex at the first glance, but time is changing. The editor is very powerful and with the scripting system you can create what ever you want. FPS game? Completely new gameplay? Driving simulation? RPG? All this will be possible. You even will be able to edit the graphic engine and change the look of the game.

Every EMERGENCY modder cried for more modding possibilities, now we have them. You can't deliver this possibilities without increasing the complexity of the whole modding system. If you are not able to handle the modding system and the editor right now, you'll have to wait until someone appears who can control it. That's all...
 

 

- Just because of the LA-Mod, Sixteen Tons Entertainment understood more than anything that players would like to be able to mod the game and made this possible in EM-5.

 

Really? The only person who has to know it, is Ralph Stock - he's making the decisions. And I don't know, if he even knows what the LA modification really is. Ralph wasn't really interested in modifications the last few years. He had some contact with the developer of the Winterberg modification, and Wuppertal, ERS Berlin and RTS were presented to him. There were even some mod develeopers who worked for his company. But it would go too far, if you say that the LA modification was the reason for the modding possibilities in EM5. The LA modification is really good, that's true. But you shouldn't overestimate the effects it can achieve.

[Ropie58]

Well than... maybe it was just my wishful thinking to make it happen...

[theparanoid]

...
Every EMERGENCY modder cried for more modding possibilities, now we have them. You can't deliver this possibilities without increasing the complexity of the whole modding system. If you are not able to handle the modding system and the editor right now, you'll have to wait until someone appears who can control it. That's all......

A good editor can be complex but easy to use.   But from what I seen of EM5 editor so far.  It not easy to use.  And this is from a person that job is doing software.  Who has a degree in Computers.  Now maybe this mythical DLC will fix this.  But I doubt.  For starts we told it was coming in feb.   However there only 7 more days left in Feb.   Since we heard no more details of mythical Feb DLC I am going to guess it not coming in feb or it be a half finish crap like the game was when it was released.  After all that . Sixteen Tons Entertainment.

 

Based on your comments.  It no wonder the game was horrible unfinished game.   IT pretty clear the developers have no clue.   Because the community guy has no clue.  I strongly suggest Sixteen Tons Entertainment Look at making the editor easyer to use.  Because a powerful, unsable editor is a worthless editor.   Since they made the editor there should be no probelm making two interface for it.  And Easy and hard.   Easy limit ability.    Hard wide open.

 

Modders will not take months to learn how to use an editor.   They made mods in there free time. 

 

As for the sorry excuse that mods want it.

 

What about all the customer that wanted Limit water, fire fighters that hooked up to hydrants. etc.

 

 

No the real answer is it takes time and money to make an easy to use editor and Sixteen Tons Entertainment has no plans on doing that.   Emergency 5 was simply a money grab.   And unless there a major changes.  I will never buy another Sixteen Tons Entertainment game.  Further more.  I will tell everyone I now not to buy the crap game Emergency 5. And this coming from some one that has bought two copies of each of the early version.  First the German version.  That I would get when I visit family or had family in germany send me.  Then buying the American version when it was released years ago.   But Sixteen Tons Entertainment is quickly getting added to EA Games boycott.   They earn that boycott by release a unfinished buggy game and not support it as well.  Call Sim City.  

[PaganiZonda760]

I have to agree with all thats been said and i don´t think i need to repeat all what has been said. i personally pre-ordered the deluxe version and i played it one hour and then deinstalled the game and went back to em4. Sad the producers don´t care about the community anymore.

[godra]

So, who's this mysterious "community guy"? He hasn't posted anything on this topic, I don't know where your conclusion comes from.

 

In some parts the editor is similar to the editors of CryEngine and UnrealEngine. Have you ever worked with tools like this? Thousands of developers and modders worldwide are able to create wonderful games and modifications with this toolsets - they are even more complicated than the EMERGENCY 5 editor. Okay, the documentation is better and these editors are even more powerful and you have this wonderful visual scripting component, but that's the only difference. So why the EMERGENCY community is the only one, which is not able to get along with such toolsets? I remember those people who cried, the EMERGENCY 4 editor would be too complex and creating modifications is too hard...

 

You want two different interfaces: Can you tell me, which features the interfaces should offer? Where should be the difference between the "easy" and "hard" mode? Which parts of the editor are too complex to use? If you really think about it, the result will be: The vanilla-easy-mode-editor wouldn't make any sense. The benefits in usability won't  outweigh the limits of the easier interface. The base functions are quite easy to use - industrial standard. The component system of the prefabs is quite easy to use - just add the functions you want to have for your prefab, that's all. If you want to find out the function of each component, you'll have to look at the original ones, otherwise you'll find it in the SDK which will be released alongside the DLC. Attaching vehicle parts? Really easy: Just add doors, wheels, lights and all the other stuff in the main window of the editor and save the whole bundle. No more additional windows with complex controls. Placing objets in the map? Easy. Changing map and editor preferences? Okay, you have hundreds of different settings, but every setting is described by tooltips and you can follow the changes directly in the editor main window. How the easy-editor-interface will help there? Nice looking checkboxes and icons? Come on...

Physically based rendering with the new texture and material system for models? Yes, it's hard to understand, but even this is industrial standard. Maybe some visual components in order to attach textures and materials would be nice - but if you have understood the whole process and the system once, it will work all the times afterwards.

 

The only thing which seems to be quite complicated is the street tool. At the first glance, it's hard to unterstand, but then it's easy to use. The really problem of the editor isn't it's usability. The problem is the lack of documentation. The SDK will offer a lot of explanation, but in my opinion this won't be enough. After the DLC is released, there will be some efforts to provide tutorials both in German and English by members of the German EMERGENCY community. Maybe this will help...

[Newfoundking]

So, who's this mysterious "community guy"? He hasn't posted anything on this topic, I don't know where your conclusion comes from.

 

In some parts the editor is similar to the editors of CryEngine and UnrealEngine. Have you ever worked with tools like this? Thousands of developers and modders worldwide are able to create wonderful games and modifications with this toolsets - they are even more complicated than the EMERGENCY 5 editor. Okay, the documentation is better and these editors are even more powerful and you have this wonderful visual scripting component, but that's the only difference. So why the EMERGENCY community is the only one, which is not able to get along with such toolsets? I remember those people who cried, the EMERGENCY 4 editor would be too complex and creating modifications is too hard...

 

You want two different interfaces: Can you tell me, which features the interfaces should offer? Where should be the difference between the "easy" and "hard" mode? Which parts of the editor are too complex to use? If you really think about it, the result will be: The vanilla-easy-mode-editor wouldn't make any sense. The benefits in usability won't  outweigh the limits of the easier interface. The base functions are quite easy to use - industrial standard. The component system of the prefabs is quite easy to use - just add the functions you want to have for your prefab, that's all. If you want to find out the function of each component, you'll have to look at the original ones, otherwise you'll find it in the SDK which will be released alongside the DLC. Attaching vehicle parts? Really easy: Just add doors, wheels, lights and all the other stuff in the main window of the editor and save the whole bundle. No more additional windows with complex controls. Placing objets in the map? Easy. Changing map and editor preferences? Okay, you have hundreds of different settings, but every setting is described by tooltips and you can follow the changes directly in the editor main window. How the easy-editor-interface will help there? Nice looking checkboxes and icons? Come on...

Physically based rendering with the new texture and material system for models? Yes, it's hard to understand, but even this is industrial standard. Maybe some visual components in order to attach textures and materials would be nice - but if you have understood the whole process and the system once, it will work all the times afterwards.

 

The only thing which seems to be quite complicated is the street tool. At the first glance, it's hard to unterstand, but then it's easy to use. The really problem of the editor isn't it's usability. The problem is the lack of documentation. The SDK will offer a lot of explanation, but in my opinion this won't be enough. After the DLC is released, there will be some efforts to provide tutorials both in German and English by members of the German EMERGENCY community. Maybe this will help...

I believe they're referring to the liaison on the German forums. No one came to our forums, only the german one, which pissed a lot of people off. 

 

You've got it right that people are pissed off that there's no documentation of substance accompanying this. It comes from the fact that we were told from day one that this would be the return of mods like in Em4. Obviously a different editor was expected, but this was an unfinished product, which people are just disappointed in. The rumor that this DLC will cost more on top of what people have paid for this have totally upset people even more, and driven a lot of the experienced modding community from continuing into this game. 

 

Sure this may be the industry standard type editor, but it's been a let down, and an unfinished product, and I know that from my conversations with the community, that's what people are upset about. If you're releasing a game to be modded, it needs to be released ready to go, not half finished with more available later through a DLC. 

[randomperson139]

Well, a "Community Manager" was introduced last year, he just hasn't been active on here.

 

Ironically, he did say

I would not do my job properly if I wouldn't be

when I mentioned him being on here...

[MikeyPI]

 I personally have no interest in continuing onto em5, I simply can't afford time time to learn to walk all over again in another game, particularly one that I feel is a simpler version of what I've already known for a few years now, I state this so my position is clear that whether they sort out this game or not really has no bearing for me personally, but I still exercise my right to speak my opinion regarding a game that I have tried.

 

NFK pretty much sums up the sentiment that a good number of the community has with regards to this particular game and modding it.  A mythical "DLC" that will fix all the ails of the game sounds well and good on paper, but given the game and the state it was released in (and at the price it was released) it should not be difficult to see why the end-user would be upset over the whole affair, adding salt to the wound in the form of DLC content instead of as a patch for it would be a grave mistake.  People in general have an extreme distaste for a certain number of mainstream developers for doing the same type of behavior that they perceive was done with EM5, over-hype what your product will be, deliver it as an unfinished, bug-ridden mess, attempt to patch it for a few months, then release DLC's to fill in the shortcomings of the game with "new" content that really should have been there in the original game release.  This has as of late became the tried and true methodology of most the mainstream developers, IMO it's likely why the pc-gaming industry as a whole is unsavory for many users out there, I personally have been burned in the past by games that were all but junk, I'm sure everyone here has a story that is much the same.  As a general rule I believe if you intend to give tools to the user, you should at least have a basic-tutorial or a more intuitive "helpful" UI within the tool, in many editors for games out there you have the ability to get tooltips, it's a really useful thing to help people figure out what they are doing.  Lack of any documentation just makes this product a huge pitfall for a good number of users out there, trying to fumble through it gets frustrating, especially if you break your game in the process of trying to learn it. 

 

While I personally believe em5 was just a money-grab (as many games as of recent years have been) I do hope for the community's sake that they do deliver on their promises to rectify the flaws within this game.  IMO though, it should not be in the form of a for-pay DLC in order to go about trying to do this. If they do attempt to charge to fix the defects of the game and then charge people for these fixes they will merely alienate more users that already have a bad taste in their mouths over the initial product, they don't want or need DLC pay content, they just want a fully functioning product as they were promised in the first place.  People can argue that it just takes time to figure out this and that, but even if you have that mindset you have to admit that not having the ability to create/load mod packages pretty much limits these tools to all but the most advanced user.  The perk of EM3/4 was that it was advanced users who built the mods and compiled them, then bundled them so any user could easily install and play these things, and they could have multiple packages that did not conflict with one another.  Without the ability to install or enable/disable mod content very easy in my book you really can't call a game "mod-friendly" since your average user is NOT advanced enough, or has the desire to manually add/remove content so they may play with certain things at specific times. 

 

Remember, not everyone out there can invest the time to figure out all the tools, and even fewer will want to take the time if the end-user will have an extremely hard time implementing anything into the game themselves. I hope they add the tools required to make separate easy to install packages, and some alteration to allow the user to enable/disable mods so they can play a German mod or an American mod, whatever suits their fancy without having to manually tamper with things in order to make this happen.  In my eyes the development of mods is but one step in the process, implementing it to the end-user is just as important, if not more so since if a user can't figure out how to use a product then what was the point in them even getting it in the first place?

[godra]

Actually the DLC will be completely free. It's labeled as DLC because of the additonal content in the campaign and freeplay mode, but you won't have to pay for it. The mod loading function will be included and it's very smooth and nice to use.

 

The community manager changed during the last months. Heiko Nowak ist now responsible in this case.

[Newfoundking]

Okay, so the DLC is free. There's still many more problems with this that haven't been resolved, and resulted in a lot of pissed off modders. Claiming industry standard doesn't make it better. To say a game is fully moddable, that means that it has switching mods, all that capability. This game doesn't. It's unfinished and it's shipped as such, and therefore it's a disappointment. 

 

The sad reality is, I, and many more of the members here, have zero faith in the producers to send anything worthwhile our way. A year ago, it was we were getting an amazing new Emergency 5 that'd blow us out of the water. Now it's wait until the DLC and it'll blow us out of the water. 

 

I've gotta say, I've been in the water for years, and I'm done waiting

[C.F.D]

I could have not said it more eloquently than MikeyPI or Newfoundking, they hit the nail spot on. I spent a year being excited for EM5 to come out. I even said words i now regret based on false hopes. 

 

Don't expect me to say anything intelligently as the aforementioned above, but after being on this community since 2007, i half spent two third of my time teaching myself how to edit and make light mods. Without question, this is what I'm good at, this is my strongest area that i can master easily. But along the road, i have encounter headaches that i felt could have been solved in EM5, so i built myself expectations that i hoped would come true. When Em5 came out, some things came true, like expanded tools on lens flare, or natural light radiations, tools that allowed me to manipulate the realism of lights. But the prime suspect in why i lost my fire in EM5 is the lack of tutorial explaining what the hell i am suppose to do in order to create patterns. It makes zero sense. It's pretty bad the way they designed the light editing tools. I felt like i was on a sinking ship, and the boys like MikeyPi and Newfoundland already found their safe boat, sailing in the distance, laughing. 

 

It would be really nice if they kept the same light editing algorithm they used for Em4 editor ... Honestly, if they game designers ACTUALLY listened to the communities that grown from the Emergency Game series, the outcome would have been different. But no, it's complete obvious that they went for our wallet, not for our passion we had built upon for many years. The main issue with Em5 is that the modders who have dedicated themselves to the community, mastering their skills in specifics areas, are stripped of that years of experiences and skills for a whole new jungle to face. Do we really want to spend x amount of times to learn something that shouldn't have been required to learn in the first place, but rather than carried over from it's previous ancestors with upgraded perks to maximize current skills ... 

 

Once the RCMP mod is finished, if the EM5 integrity remains the same it is now, i expect myself to retire ...and probably many others will follow, and i don't want to do that. 

[theparanoid]

Exactly. Emergency 5 was announced two years ago. Two years ago. Claiming to be be better then emergency 4 with modding. Then they release emergency 2012, 2013 then emergency 2014. Push back the release of emergency 5. Then push it back again and released an unfinished untest game. release a patch and last month said they release a DLC in Feb. Well News flash. There only 4 days in Feb. Then the magical fix it DLC will either be late. But I highly doubt it be any better polished then this game.

Maybe instead telling us how great it going to be. FIX it release and let US decide if any good.

[MikeyPI]

Actually the DLC will be completely free. It's labeled as DLC because of the additonal content in the campaign and freeplay mode, but you won't have to pay for it. The mod loading function will be included and it's very smooth and nice to use.

It is a good thing if the "DLC" aka patch is released for free, that is a positive thing at least, if it is released and as described in the hyped up description you've provided anyway.  I compare developers of software to politicians, they are very good at hyping what they're doing and promising the world, but nearly always disappoint in delivery, expecting you to forget the other 80% they promised since they did give you around 20% of what they said.  If any other industry were to do the same they would be sued out of business by the governments, software is exempt from being required to deliver a defect-free, as-advertised product and they take advantage of this fact.  Most of the people out there in this community, rightfully so have taken on a "show me then I'll believe" perspective.  This attitude comes from the major hype built around the original game and the lackluster delivery of it (particularly at the price point it was offered for), given that particular history behind the development of the core game you should be able to understand the hesitation to want to see proof prior to believing what is stated to the community.

 

I knew for myself they were going to change how everything was done for an "all-new" game, that's part of the process when you make a new game to change how things are done, but a developer that actually wants to preserve the modding community supporting it would include either documentation at least, or even better utility tools to make the transition easier for modders to go into their new system.  By not doing either they've taken a large chunk of the "veteran" modding community and alienated them out of the game, most simply have no desire to learn to walk all over again for a game that was in their eyes a disappointment in it's delivery.  These are facts of life the developer has to face, regardless of what they promise moving forward, they have to rectify what issues exist in order to "smooth over" any ill feelings the consumers have, if they wish to retain the same consumer base.. If not, then they just need to keep  doing what they've done so far in this process and they'll be perfectly fine with the caveat of all the upset individuals likely never purchasing another 16T product, as many have done with other developers who they felt alienated by.

 

In my book they failed to deliver what they promised to the consumer, they overloaded their hand with what they said would happen vs. what was actually delivered.  Such is life in that regard most games do this now, but in a "niche market" game it's a dangerous game to play, most large franchises have millions of consumers that will buy their products so if 10% are disappointed it really changes nothing.  Emergency is a limited-market game and as such one would figure the developer would wish to retain what "base" they have while reaching as many new initiates as possible, but the reality that must be faced is that most of the people out there who have purchased the emergency series games have done so because of mods being available to tailor the game to what they wanted.  In this game that was promised which is why so many jumped onto the bandwagon early on, but in the end people who got a game last year are still waiting for fully functional tools to make it "easy" to develop and distribute mods for this game.  Calling this game mod-friendly is a fallacy at this time, currently only advanced-users can alter their games, knowing and understanding how to undo these actions, there is currently no tool to differentiate mods nor is there any tool to compile packages to make them easy to install. The "DLC" is suppsed to rectify this, but how can you market a game as mod-friendly without thinking of such basic steps within the process to make the end-user have an easier go of it?  It just stinks of rush the job for a cash grab and laugh your way to the bank all the while telling those you just played this particular game on that they just need to be patient and you will implement these wonderful changes! (without noting the fact that they should've been there in the first place)

 

 

The community manager changed during the last months. Heiko Nowak ist now responsible in this case.

I am quite glad you know that the community manager has changed and that someone else is now responsible for PR duties for the communities at large, but with my infinite powers of deduction (aka the search feature of this lovely forum) I can tell you this individual's name comes up only once on this forum, and that is within this topic as you have stated it.  Great relations with the community at large if you can't even take the time to drop in and say hi as the predecessor at least did, he may have been active for a dismally short period, but at least he made his presence known in passing.  The new "community manager" has not even felt it proper to grace us with a passing meet and greet, that about sums up the relations of the community with their PR rep that has been appointed allegedly to confer with the community.  Even you have to admit that is pretty sad when the guy who's job is supposed to be to handle public relations with the community can't take the time to grace their consumer base with even a passing "hey everyone I'm the new guy"..  That alone speaks volumes for how valued the consumer is in this instance, and rightfully so users can and would feel extremely alienated by a developer that has a PR specialist for them that does not even associate with them.

 

All New Ford Pickup! for 2015!  While we marketed it as being a pickup with a bed, due to unforeseen development issues we were unable to deliver the bed on this model, please be patient and enjoy your new ford pickup while we work on a patch to make the F-series1.20485 Also included within this "DLC" (aka patch) is the suspension, when we shipped this truck we promised it could haul 1 ton in the bed, but the suspension we included only can hold 20% of that weight, we also apologize to the 35% of consumers with performance issues, we are working on a patch to rectify these issues, along with the other 15% that can't even get their brand new ford truck to even start.  We are working hard to fix these issues and will continue to do so to support our much valued customer! Thank you for your support in buying our latest pickup.

How fast do you think the governments would bury them in lawsuits while the consumer flat out never would purchase another vehicle with such defects again, or even think of buying from the same corporation again?  The same application can be applied to practically every other consumer market out there, except for software where the quality control just is not there and buyer beware reigns supreme.  It's a sad statement but a valid one for the whole software industry at large, from Operating Systems to gaming, they all do the same practices and the consumer is left with little protection from the inferior quality control they push while massively inflating the cost for such defective goods.