674 replies to this topic

[itchboy]

First of all, Emergency 4 modding wont die, because there are more communities in the world other than Emergency-Planet. 

 

Seriously? People don't care about mods? People will always applaud a modification, because nobody is a EM4 modding god (or thinks that he/she is) and everyone starts from the bottom. In my 6-7 years of modding in Emergency 3 and Emergency 4, I learned to envolve, to combine my skills and most of all, to respect and support the work of others, no matter whether they were good or bad, because what people need is encouragement and that's how modding envolves. Nobody can start a full scale modification without the knowledge that a modder with 5+ years of experience in modding has, with a long history of failures (yes, because they also make part of the work in a modification) or knowing all the rules, because I didn't when I started and experience taught me how to proceed.

 

Besides, who cares about wether mods are reskins or not, anyways? The German (and European) modding community, is basically 90% reskins with models that are free to use (wow, just look at that...). And still, people like the modifications and support them. Why? Because that's precisely how a modding community works. A project can start as a reskin mod, but end as a full scale modification with new models, scripts, lights because people are encouraged to push to their limits and try their best in doing something different. I also was the only modder working in a Portugal Modification for about 2 or 3 years and lots of people were (and currently are) using my stuff, totally natural. I felt that my work had a purpose, I didn't pushed people down when they tried to do something different, I explained that things need to be credited and supported them through their works in their own modifications, because that's what experienced modders are supposed to do. To teach people.

 

Also, are they going to complain and exterminate the German and other communities, too? Because those are totally different than what you see here, they share materials and most of their modifications are reskins and use the same stuff over and over again, still, the community and experienced members support the authors and encourage them to envolve, by offering help, models, skins and knowledge or do you think that their database came from the sky by parachute? Besides, you don't see any conflicts there, because nobody in there has conspiracy theories that people are taking their stuff and saying they did it. If there's any issue with credits, a simple friendly PM or post will solve the issue.  Take CCC for example, a modder joined all the models in the EM4 world, reskined them and made the biggest civillian vehicle pack in Emergecy 4, nowadays, people are using the models featured in that modification as a base for their own modifcations and you don't see anyone crying about it or taking their modifications down. That's how modding works for them.

My context was for the english speaking community. I am aware of the German forums. As a whole, their mods arent exactly just reskins because most of them take the time to change out parts, add new things, and create new models. Over here, its the minority who are able to do that.

 

I am not totally against reskin mods, but I do notice that it is the authors of those kinds of mods causing the most trouble on this site. Its just a trend I've noticed over the 5 years I've been lurking on this site and the one year I've actually been a member here.

 

Problem here is, that many people here start a mod without the experience needed to start one, nor without knowing the rules.

 

The line I am trying to draw is that there is an increasing trend of the majority not respecting the credits of models and other content. The people who tend to violate this are the reskin mods. So its only natural I feel this way towards them.

 

There isn't a conspiracy that there is a credit sissue. Many violations over time have occured on this site. Modders such as myself have simply did what we did as an act of self preservation so that our things do not get ripped apart upon release. And yes, some people here believe that the mods should come out of the sky..

 

At the end of the day, modding works fine for the German community because their members are so much more mature and know the rules. Its not possible to compare EmP and the Germans because they are by far so much more disciplined and know the rights/wrongs of Em4 modding.

 

Many experienced modders here have tried teaching other members in private but with little success due to the mindset of "instant gratification". Most decided not to continue being taught because they realized that reskin mods are faster and easier than actually learning various skills like scripting and modelling especially.

 

The difference also, is that in the German forums, the beginners and experienced modders know each other's role on this site. Over here, we have people sassing each other over tiny things and overstepping each other's bounds.

 

The reason nobody over there is crying about it is because their members credit their content creators. They also make sure to provide adequate documentation. Over there, how many new models are you seeing coming out? Quite a lot, but note how most of the civil car models such as those by TimmyX only get exported over here.

 

It is not possible to compare here and the German forums, simply because its a different world there.

[Alcatraz]

If I understand (as I do not speak English origin), it is a permissions thing? So if he asks you permission, the problem is solved?

[BeastyBill88]

Not just that. People dont give a **** about mods. New models or not, they will applaud it anyway. I could model this

and put a lightbar on it and it would be hailed as "unique" and "nice" and "awesome".

Lol would it be part of the Orange county mod? hahaha 😂

[MikeyPI]

As of late people have felt compelled to mis-represent their works, which is where the rub comes into play.  Instead of saying yeah this guy (or in truth in most cases these people) created the base content I am using, and where applicable they ask to use it (which requires all the effort of writing the PM saying "hey can I use this for my modification".).  Most people feel they can take what they want from where they want, and totally disregard either asking permission or crediting people.  Truth is itchboy has it 100% correct when he says the german community is a different beast, the few germans who've graced us over the years, most of which decided to leave for much the same reason that we're having problems with once again.   It used to be a fringe group that would have such viewpoints that it was okey to take what you want and screw people over who actually made it, which is why there has never been a need for a "push" to stop the behavior.  Now however, it is commonly accepted by a much larger segment of the community for the sake of having new things to play with faster, which is 100% true that a reskin is massively faster than anything new like scripting or modeling from scratch.  

 

What people are missing is that the people who take the effort are frankly feeling pretty well disregarded in lieu of more stuff faster, which reduces their incentive to want to take the time to make new things.  Add on top of this the attitude that "hey they're persecuting me and trying to keep me down!" with the effort to sell a witch hunt mentality just further exacerbates the problems...  @Ghost, your concept of how you're seeing things is not as harsh, but has the same idea in mind, that the people complaining and those pursuing it on their behalf are the ones who need to change their ways, that somehow they are being too extreme in addressing these issues when in reality shouldnt it be those who are "new" or mis-informed that should be more willing to admit the wrongs they've committed since after all, if you do nothing wrong, there is no reason to have to involve you in such things?

 

People seem to be forgetting the ultimate problems that are going about right now, in other communities I've been involved in the way things worked were pretty simple, those that respected the people who made their lives easier by making the content available for them to use simply followed their requests when it came to crediting and permission, and in the end everyone was in a better position for having such content to use instead of having to make their own.  In this community a large faction wishes to make it to where "you should be grateful they're using your content and that people want it, so why should people be accountable to what you as the original creator wishes to have met to use it, the people want it! How dare you question the will of the people!".  Funny thing happens when that mentality takes hold and people start stepping on one another:  The guys who can take the time and effort to make new things, stop bothering to do it because they know not only will their wishes not be respected, but when they question it they're going to face ridicule and harassment because they're standing up for their time and effort.  It's a hobby, and by no means is anyone forced to do it, but the census is that somehow people should be grateful for being ripped off, when I can tell you every community that has developed that mentality has led to people being far more stingy with content (in most instances locking it so it cannot be altered in any way at all) or flat out moving on to other things. 

 

Whether people want to realize it or not is up to them, but there has to be a certain level of respect out there for one another in their efforts.  Reskinners do contribute to the community, but without the people making the content for them to reskin, they'd have nothing to work with in the first place.  If that is not understood and if people cannot consolidate that important fact and learn to respect the original guy's wishes, there are other fish in the sea as it goes and they can go onto greener pastures in other games, ones which are much newer and have a much larger following.  Remember one important fact:  If you've done nothing wrong, then it is impossible for you to have problems with such things, the funny thing about all of the accused cases I have had to be involved in:  Every one of them claimed innocence, not only claimed it but screamed it from the rooftops, and in the end for every one that I've had to address so far (which hasnt been many actually) they've all been 100% in the wrong and in fact did rip someone off.  The fact of ripping someone off is bad enough, but that coupled with the flat out denials of such behavior makes matters even worse.... Had these same people been honest and candid instead of defensive and trying to play the role of the "persecuted" the whole issue may have been resolved smoother than it was.  Because they opt to make things more difficult, it makes more things more difficult for all parties involved.  Accidental omission is one thing, but when you're trying to defend your position it makes it seem less accidental and more intentional by the minute.

 

In closing remember, if you're respectful of the original people and take the little bit of extra effort (which is far less than actually having to make it yourself) and figure out who made what and ask their permission to use it/credit them, then you'll not have anything to worry about.  If you opt to just use people's stuff "devil may care" style, then you're going to have problems, and those problems exist only because you've made them exist.  Nobody else is at fault for when you've taken it upon yourself to "short cut" by stealing other's stuff to do it, not the guys who's content you stole, nor the people who try to mediate it.  Most the time you can get permission to use people's stuff, the few exceptions are where you're cloning their stuff in 1/1 replicas (little to no alterations done to it), then I can understand, and I think most people can agree it's unfair for them to do all the work on a mod, someone else to take parts of it for a reskin mod and use them 1/1 as they are just because they can push a release sooner than you.  IE: I'm doing a chicago mod, someone else uses my chicago models/skins in their own rendition of a chicago area mod using other people's stuff mixed in with my stuff, thus saving them a ton of time and making my chicago mod not only redundant, but taking away any special traits it may have once had....  Someone taking my chicago model/skin and making it a florida skin falls into a diff category for my views.

[Ghost Graphic Designs]

My context was for the english speaking community. I am aware of the German forums. As a whole, their mods arent exactly just reskins because most of them take the time to change out parts, add new things, and create new models. Over here, its the minority who are able to do that.

 

I am not totally against reskin mods, but I do notice that it is the authors of those kinds of mods causing the most trouble on this site. Its just a trend I've noticed over the 5 years I've been lurking on this site and the one year I've actually been a member here.

 

Problem here is, that many people here start a mod without the experience needed to start one, nor without knowing the rules.

 

The line I am trying to draw is that there is an increasing trend of the majority not respecting the credits of models and other content. The people who tend to violate this are the reskin mods. So its only natural I feel this way towards them.

 

There isn't a conspiracy that there is a credit sissue. Many violations over time have occured on this site. Modders such as myself have simply did what we did as an act of self preservation so that our things do not get ripped apart upon release. And yes, some people here believe that the mods should come out of the sky..

 

At the end of the day, modding works fine for the German community because their members are so much more mature and know the rules. Its not possible to compare EmP and the Germans because they are by far so much more disciplined and know the rights/wrongs of Em4 modding.

 

Many experienced modders here have tried teaching other members in private but with little success due to the mindset of "instant gratification". Most decided not to continue being taught because they realized that reskin mods are faster and easier than actually learning various skills like scripting and modelling especially.

 

The difference also, is that in the German forums, the beginners and experienced modders know each other's role on this site. Over here, we have people sassing each other over tiny things and overstepping each other's bounds.

 

The reason nobody over there is crying about it is because their members credit their content creators. They also make sure to provide adequate documentation. Over there, how many new models are you seeing coming out? Quite a lot, but note how most of the civil car models such as those by TimmyX only get exported over here.

 

It is not possible to compare here and the German forums, simply because its a different world there.

Totally agree with you. Guess we've gotta change some mindsets around here. Count me in.

 

 

@Ghost, your concept of how you're seeing things is not as harsh, but has the same idea in mind, that the people complaining and those pursuing it on their behalf are the ones who need to change their ways, that somehow they are being too extreme in addressing these issues when in reality shouldnt it be those who are "new" or mis-informed that should be more willing to admit the wrongs they've committed since after all, if you do nothing wrong, there is no reason to have to involve you in such things?

True. I just got involved because want this tense atmosphere to go away. But yes, I totally agree with your post and understand your point of view. Let's hope this gets solved as swiftly as possible, I'll try to do my part.

[MikeyPI]

Totally agree with you. Guess we've gotta change some mindsets around here. Count me in.

 

 

True. I just got involved because want this tense atmosphere to go away. But yes, I totally agree with your post and understand your point of view. Let's hope this gets solved as swiftly as possible, I'll try to do my part.

I think most people want the tense atmosphere to go away, I'd be lying if I were to say everyone does, truth is there are many players running about right now with their own agendas out there that are relishing in the drama and taking any opportunity to stir the pot they can. Whatever their reasons are, they're the ones that need to take a step back and the community as a whole needs to cull those people in.  Hopefully this "push" that has came to the surface can be negated and people can manage to act more responsibly and respectful towards one another realizing that without people willing to make new things, there will be nothing to use in the future.  I hope that people can understand one another a bit more, take the time to understand how the other half feels, I for my part do not wish to see the community end up with nothing new to play with, nor do I wish to see things restricted to the point nobody can use anything, prior to the latest events it wasnt a problem to ask for permission to use and credit, hopefully we can find our way back to that place.

 

Those who want to use other's things should realize it's far less time to ask to use something and to credit as the author wishes compared to having to make new things yourself completely.

Those who make the things others wish to use should try to be reasonable about letting people use their stuff whenever possible.

Those who wish to consume the end-product of both should try to realize how they'd feel given the other people's perspectives.

Everyone should try to remain civil with one another and going forth try to respect one another a bit more, and try to look at one another's perspective before emotions get the best of them.

 

The majority of the "drama" would never come to pass if people were to just ask someone for something, in most cases they'll let you use it, unless as I've mentioned before you want to take it 100% as-is and do nothing to it, then people will rightfully so probably not be so willing to let it go under that pretense.  If you wanna use something, just ask, it's much easier to ask permission than to have to ask for forgiveness later (less ruffled feathers too).

 

Hopefully everyone moving forth can remember how things were around here, and try to work their way back to that place to make an atmosphere that is friendly to all people who wanna be here, while those who are just looking to stir up problems and cause issues will hopefully move along and find this community unwelcoming to such conduct and behavior, as we've always tried to maintain the drama-free atmosphere here, we don't want it now anymore than in the past.

[jamnj88]

I think what needs to be done is if modders want there work protected start copyrighting it. I have been doing research since all of this stuff started and what I found out is once it's released on a public site it becomes fair game for anyone to use and all someone has to do is make a minor change and bam they can call it their own. I do not really agree that it should be way but hey I guess that's what it is. I still think people should still be given the proper credits. I just put a new unit I did into my la mod and I won't even show screen shots of it because I know people will be asking for it because of it being unique

[MikeyPI]

Most people make the same mistake you've made jamn in assuming you require copyright protections to have protection, the truth is that what we do here is considered "intellectual properties" no different than a painting or a drawing would be.  Being that these items are artistic in nature, and given they're protected by copyrights from the actual owners of the factual equivalents, there is not a grounds for a copyright without licensing in place.  In our cases it's just intellectual properties which we have a claim to, and that is ultimately where the claims go for us, whether it be available for free, or for-profit it is protected under those same rights, not unlike software designers that provide their software free-to-use have end-user-license-agreements (ELUA) regardless of the software being provided as-is for free, our EULA's are in essence the documentation included with the original content..  Most people try to overcomplicate the issue, but there ya go as to where that goes, I believe that as a community in order to progress going forth, people have to recognize it's the original people's works, and ultimately respect their wishes (even if you don't agree with their views, it's theirs to do what they want to do).  Nobody that I know myself is wanting to make it to where nobody can use anything they've made at all, but they all want their wishes when it comes to their stuff respected, and that is ultimately where we're at with it.  Nobody in their right mind is going to do something for free, only to be stepped all over and ridiculed because they want their wishes respected, instead they can keep things private or just outright move on from this community.

 

In the end if someone wants to use something without having to worry about such things as crediting and permissions to use it, they simply can just privately do their alterations as people have in the past.  Nobody can prevent people doing works for themselves in private, and ultimately nobody should prevent that.  Most people want their wishes respected, for most that is crediting them for using it, for others it's asking permissions, in either case if you want to release it in public you should have these issues resolved before you go ahead and release it.

[jamnj88]

Most people make the same mistake you've made jamn in assuming you require copyright protections to have protection, the truth is that what we do here is considered "intellectual properties" no different than a painting or a drawing would be. Being that these items are artistic in nature, and given they're protected by copyrights from the actual owners of the factual equivalents, there is not a grounds for a copyright without licensing in place. In our cases it's just intellectual properties which we have a claim to, and that is ultimately where the claims go for us, whether it be available for free, or for-profit it is protected under those same rights, not unlike software designers that provide their software free-to-use have end-user-license-agreements (ELUA) regardless of the software being provided as-is for free, our EULA's are in essence the documentation included with the original content.. Most people try to overcomplicate the issue, but there ya go as to where that goes, I believe that as a community in order to progress going forth, people have to recognize it's the original people's works, and ultimately respect their wishes (even if you don't agree with their views, it's theirs to do what they want to do). Nobody that I know myself is wanting to make it to where nobody can use anything they've made at all, but they all want their wishes when it comes to their stuff respected, and that is ultimately where we're at with it. Nobody in their right mind is going to do something for free, only to be stepped all over and ridiculed because they want their wishes respected, instead they can keep things private or just outright move on from this community.

In the end if someone wants to use something without having to worry about such things as crediting and permissions to use it, they simply can just privately do their alterations as people have in the past. Nobody can prevent people doing works for themselves in private, and ultimately nobody should prevent that. Most people want their wishes respected, for most that is crediting them for using it, for others it's asking permissions, in either case if you want to release it in public you should have these issues resolved before you go ahead and release it.

That's makes a lot of sense the way you put it now I better understand where you guys are coming from on it and I agree with proper credits 100% and all and most modders if you ask permission will let you use there stuff as long as you ask first and use proper credits.

[ENG51INE]

Ok, apparently this has gotten way out of hand.....

 

What I meant is that you don't need to keep asking me permission to use my MAPS and MODS, feel free to use them.  

 

I never said you don't need to give anyone credit or use OTHER PEOPLE'S creations without permission.

 

I think this is what has caused all the issues here.  You should always seek permission and always give credit where credit is due.  I have all the credits and permissions in all of the readme files for all the mods I have been a part of.

 

Many times people will message me and I either don't get the notification, or don't see if for weeks and sometimes months, so that is why I said it was ok to use my stuff without asking me, and giving a broad statement of "you have my permission".

 

I apologize for the way that message was received as I think that is what caused the whole issue between MikeyPi and myself.

[jamnj88]

You guys don't have to worry anyone who uses any of the Boston mod guys mods I download it and make sure the credits are done properly and if not I get in contact with the creator.

[MikeyPI]

Ok, apparently this has gotten way out of hand.....

 

What I meant is that you don't need to keep asking me permission to use my MAPS and MODS, feel free to use them.  

 

I never said you don't need to give anyone credit or use OTHER PEOPLE'S creations without permission.

 

I think this is what has caused all the issues here.  You should always seek permission and always give credit where credit is due.  I have all the credits and permissions in all of the readme files for all the mods I have been a part of.

 

Many times people will message me and I either don't get the notification, or don't see if for weeks and sometimes months, so that is why I said it was ok to use my stuff without asking me, and giving a broad statement of "you have my permission".

 

I apologize for the way that message was received as I think that is what caused the whole issue between MikeyPi and myself.

That is your right as the creator of the content you're responsible for, if you want to allow it "free to use" without permissions required, with or without credit requirements for the parts you've done in them, you may choose to do so.  Where you believe that I somehow have an issue with you in particular, the issues that are currently abound are unfortunately in the community at large, not any one particular user.  The way your statement read, led to my mis-understanding it believing you intended all aspects of the mods, not just your parts within them, which is why I ultimately added the edited edition.  If I misunderstood your statement, my bad for that part of it, it may have been mis-interpreted, and your follow-up statement here states this was the case.

 

Most of the things that I've stated in this topic is directed to the community at large, correcting mis-information that people have regarding such issues, such as in regard to copyrights (while, a term we commonly use, the specific terminology is Intellectual Property).  I'm kinda hoping most people respect those who've made the things they use, but more than a "fringe" as of late has come forth with differing beliefs in this regards.  So as I said my statements while made in this topic, are ultimately for the community-at-large, not any one specific user, even if certain users bring up a statement which encourages me to make the statement.  I commonly "bundle" statements rather than speaking to any one person, when I do it tends to be pretty clear (usually quoted as I've done here).

 

Anywho, I hope people can get it straight and everything calms down, but we'll see and time will tell... I'd much rather not have to mediate all these things out and have the people involved discuss the matters themselves, but sometimes we gotta step in.. Take care, goodluck with whatever you may get into in the future.

[LIPD Productions Inc.]

Anyway, getting back ON topic, for some reason the airplane does not take care of a fire if it's dispatched to it, Engine 51, can you see why?

[ENG51INE]

That is your right as the creator of the content you're responsible for, if you want to allow it "free to use" without permissions required, with or without credit requirements for the parts you've done in them, you may choose to do so.  Where you believe that I somehow have an issue with you in particular, the issues that are currently abound are unfortunately in the community at large, not any one particular user.  The way your statement read, led to my mis-understanding it believing you intended all aspects of the mods, not just your parts within them, which is why I ultimately added the edited edition.  If I misunderstood your statement, my bad for that part of it, it may have been mis-interpreted, and your follow-up statement here states this was the case.

 

Most of the things that I've stated in this topic is directed to the community at large, correcting mis-information that people have regarding such issues, such as in regard to copyrights (while, a term we commonly use, the specific terminology is Intellectual Property).  I'm kinda hoping most people respect those who've made the things they use, but more than a "fringe" as of late has come forth with differing beliefs in this regards.  So as I said my statements while made in this topic, are ultimately for the community-at-large, not any one specific user, even if certain users bring up a statement which encourages me to make the statement.  I commonly "bundle" statements rather than speaking to any one person, when I do it tends to be pretty clear (usually quoted as I've done here).

 

Anywho, I hope people can get it straight and everything calms down, but we'll see and time will tell... I'd much rather not have to mediate all these things out and have the people involved discuss the matters themselves, but sometimes we gotta step in.. Take care, goodluck with whatever you may get into in the future.

I apologize for my outburst as I did it mostly out of anger.  I think it was an error on my part where the misunderstanding took place as after I have reread the initial statement, I can understand why you interpreted it the way you did.  Like I said recently, I do believe in giving credit where it is due, that was not my issue at all and no one should be publishing content without giving credit to the initial creators.

 

I will step away from the keyboard in the future and reevaluate my thoughts before I publicly display them.

[poole3003]

is there any were to download this mod

[jamnj88]

Yes go to boston mod guys facebook

[ENG51INE]

is there any were to download this mod

https://www.facebook...392147907609568

[LIPD Productions Inc.]

https://www.facebook...392147907609568

Yeah, with this version, the airplane does not put water on the fires.

[ENG51INE]

Yeah, with this version, the airplane does not put water on the fires.

I have not had an issue with it nor has anyone I have played multiplayer with...  I will look at it again on a different computer and see if I can recreate it.

[tysohug]

I have not had an issue with it nor has anyone I have played multiplayer with...  I will look at it again on a different computer and see if I can recreate it.

It does happen mostly when there is a fire on the outside of the map (eg the forest above station 2 and station 1) but works perfect with the forest near the hospital.