32 replies to this topic

[topfuzz]

Not really, unless its self-defense obviously. Responding police have to contain the situation by setting up a perimeter. Specialized police units like swat or hrt will actively engage the shooter(s).

 

I dont think so, if there is an active shooter there is no need to set up a perimeter because you know where the suspect is and hes not going anywhere because hes shooting people. After Columbine Law Enforcement changed their training and tactics so they dont wait outside waiting for swat while people are being killed. Every officer should be  trained for this type of scenario now they may wait for a few more units to arrive so they can engage the shooter in groups which makes sense but you cant wait 30 minutes to an hour for the swat team to be called and hope for the best. And most officers carry rifles in their vehicles so im sure they are equipped to handle most situations. 

 

Ill give you an example the Shooting that recently happened at FSU that shooter was killed by patrol officers from the University's police department along with Tallahassee PD. In active shooter situations time is of the essence because you have to save as many lives as possible and i think because of their quick response they saved lives.

 

 http://www.cnn.com/2...s/fsu-incident/

[MikeyPI]

Seen these types of topics before, and I have to say that security is but an illusion.  In free societies you can't have places locked down as would be required to "secure" them, even then you have even odds one of the security personnel are in fact the shooter themselves (see military base shootings for examples of that).  Even the white house has been breached recently, the cost of access is security, and in the end that makes security a deterrent for some, but a highly motivated individual (which in most cases intends to die in the process of their actions) is nearly impossible to prevent from doing their actions.  Only thing you can do is train people to respond to the scenario.  Thank god we don't have alot of zealot terrorists roaming around doing their deeds, otherwise there would be no actual protocol to prevent/deter them that would be effective within acceptable means by our society.  (see russian responses to hostage scenarios for what they had to do with their terrorism issues).

 

It's a trade-off to be free to do what you will, you have to be willing to give up some of the security blanket that could be provided in lieu of convenience, that convenience comes at a cost that in alotta cases you won't have the security requirements met to address the higher end incidents that can occur.  Malls are a great example of a place where someone can do quite a bit of damage prior to response being anything to hamper them.  Unarmed guards sadly don't have the clout to stop an active shooter scenario.

[Hoppah]

I dont think so, if there is an active shooter there is no need to set up a perimeter because you know where the suspect is and hes not going anywhere because hes shooting people. After Columbine Law Enforcement changed their training and tactics so they dont wait outside waiting for swat while people are being killed. Every officer should be  trained for this type of scenario now they may wait for a few more units to arrive so they can engage the shooter in groups which makes sense but you cant wait 30 minutes to an hour for the swat team to be called and hope for the best. And most officers carry rifles in their vehicles so im sure they are equipped to handle most situations. 

 

Ill give you an example the Shooting that recently happened at FSU that shooter was killed by patrol officers from the University's police department along with Tallahassee PD. In active shooter situations time is of the essence because you have to save as many lives as possible and i think because of their quick response they saved lives.

 

 http://www.cnn.com/2...s/fsu-incident/

 

Well it depends on the situation obviously, but I hope to god it won't become SOP. Officers may be equipped, but they aint trained like HRT to deal with active shooters, especially when it comes to tactics (the T in SWAT). Imagine an active shooter in a big school or mall with plenty of exits and the first 5 cops armed with AR15's running inside within the first 15 minutes or so, trying to be all heroic. It's asking for a bloodbath. Especially if the situation is not anything like a suicidal lonewolf, which at that point isn't even known yet. You HAVE to have intel before you go in. Schools and malls are great for ambushes. 

 

A school shooting cannot be handled the same way as firemen running into a burning building like on tv.

 

There is definately a need to setup a perimeter.

[CCCXLII]

I dont think so, if there is an active shooter there is no need to set up a perimeter because you know where the suspect is and hes not going anywhere because hes shooting people. After Columbine Law Enforcement changed their training and tactics so they dont wait outside waiting for swat while people are being killed. Every officer should be  trained for this type of scenario now they may wait for a few more units to arrive so they can engage the shooter in groups which makes sense but you cant wait 30 minutes to an hour for the swat team to be called and hope for the best. And most officers carry rifles in their vehicles so im sure they are equipped to handle most situations.

Accurate.

I can't find a good, definitive source for the policy but these will have to do (scroll down to 'what to expect from police officers'):
http://www.northwest...iveshooter.html
https://protect.iu.e.../active-shooter

 

If you look around the web, you can find active shooter instructional videos that say the same thing. Personally I think it's a change for the better, but sometimes you will get incidents of police responding to a 'shooter' that doesn't exist (try searching SWATTING for an example).
 

Malls are a great example of a place where someone can do quite a bit of damage prior to response being anything to hamper them.  Unarmed guards sadly don't have the clout to stop an active shooter scenario.

 

Some cities actually place police substations inside malls.

 

http://www.wsmv.com/...-rivergate-mall

 

I get what you're saying, and this is why I feel like awareness, training and carrying is important for all citizens, no matter the country. In my opinion, the police and other emergency services aren't 'First Responders', but rather you and anyone in the surrounding area are.

[MikeyPI]

Round these parts some convenience stores have substations for police as well.. Doesnt mean they don't get robbed just the same  Problem is gotta have them where they need to be when ya need em, in real life application most people are smart enough to strike when they have the best advantage... Every little bit helps but for the most part it's a perception of security that makes people feel safe, not an actual situation.  Such is why crime exists, you're asking a relatively small populace to cover a very large area, malls, schools, theaters, concerts are all target-rich environments where security may be present, but you're still asking them to cover a relatively large area.  It doesnt take long to open fire into a crowd and do pretty devastating levels of damages... Anywhere that people congregate is realistically a target that could be exploited.  Ya dun really see people who are suicidal running amok in police stations, pity at least then it'd be more of a challenge, but it doesnt happen.

[topfuzz]

Well it depends on the situation obviously, but I hope to god it won't become SOP. Officers may be equipped, but they aint trained like HRT to deal with active shooters, especially when it comes to tactics (the T in SWAT). Imagine an active shooter in a big school or mall with plenty of exits and the first 5 cops armed with AR15's running inside within the first 15 minutes or so, trying to be all heroic. It's asking for a bloodbath. Especially if the situation is not anything like a suicidal lonewolf, which at that point isn't even known yet. You HAVE to have intel before you go in. Schools and malls are great for ambushes. 

 

A school shooting cannot be handled the same way as firemen running into a burning building like on tv.

 

There is definately a need to setup a perimeter.

 

 

I think the majority of these incidents are a lone gunman with no real plan but to injure and kill people and for these type of incidents you dont need a swat team to stop the threat. And whenever you have a mass shooting in public you are going to have like hundreds of 911 calls telling you whats going and where the shooter is so once the officers are on scene they have an idea of whats going on and where the shooter/shooters is/are. Now for a larger structure such as an indoor mall of course you would probably have several groups of officers coming from all the entrances of the mall so they can converge on the threat. And of course other officers would secure the entrances and ensure everyone can get out. But really stopping the treat is the first priority and the rest can be dealt with after. And also the response for these types of incidents would be all hands on deck with multiple agencies involved so you would have plenty of officers to secure the scene and such. 

[Fred03]

I think the majority of these incidents are a lone gunman with no real plan but to injure and kill people and for these type of incidents you dont need a swat team to stop the threat. And whenever you have a mass shooting in public you are going to have like hundreds of 911 calls telling you whats going and where the shooter is so once the officers are on scene they have an idea of whats going on and where the shooter/shooters is/are. Now for a larger structure such as an indoor mall of course you would probably have several groups of officers coming from all the entrances of the mall so they can converge on the threat. And of course other officers would secure the entrances and ensure everyone can get out. But really stopping the treat is the first priority and the rest can be dealt with after. And also the response for these types of incidents would be all hands on deck with multiple agencies involved so you would have plenty of officers to secure the scene and such. 

One MAJOR flaw in that logic, just because hundreds of people are calling 911 does NOT mean the officers know what is going on, anyone in the emergency services can tell you about the "fog of war" for lack of a better term, that surrounds the initial response to any major incident. Older folks will remember on 9/11 that it was reported for a short time that a helicopter had hit the pentagon instead of a plane.

[topfuzz]

One MAJOR flaw in that logic, just because hundreds of people are calling 911 does NOT mean the officers know what is going on, anyone in the emergency services can tell you about the "fog of war" for lack of a better term, that surrounds the initial response to any major incident. Older folks will remember on 9/11 that it was reported for a short time that a helicopter had hit the pentagon instead of a plane.

 

Oh Fred, of course witness statements are notoriously unreliable but i only said they would have an idea of what is going on and it doesn't take a genius to determine where a shooter is once you have arrived on scene. Hear gunshots? People running? Saying hes over there!!!! 

 

Its much easier if its in a indoor area of course it would be harder if were say on a large school campus. 

[Newfoundking]

I've gotta tell you that you're very wrong on the it doesn't take a genius. Take a basic school for instance, I'll use a science building on my local university's campus. It's a square, with an outside parking in the center. It's got 4 stories, you'd think it's pretty straight forward, right? Nope. Even in the simplest of buildings, there's hundreds of places to hide, and even still, active shooters don't mean that there is active gunfire, it means there's someone shooting sometimes in the area. People often when they hear gunshots don't know what it is at first, I mean no one ever thinks it'll happen to them, so they might not even realize they are in a shooting situation, and on top of that, everyone seems to be an expert, and you'll get conflicting reports. He went this way may have been valid five minutes ago, or maybe you're scared out of your mind, and don't know what direction he went, you're just too afraid you'll be useless. 

 

In hindsight, sure it doesn't take a genius to realize there was a shooter, but when you put people that don't expect it to happen in real life, in situations where they're hearing 100 different stories, it gets messy fast. Even in training. I ran command in a school shooting training scenario with our emergency services last year, even though there was areas that were clearly in play for this event, directions of the shooter, what was happening, and how it was happening was still confusing, despite everyone involved knowing it was a shooting for sure, and it was somewhere in this directioned area. Imagine when there's no boundaries, a lot more chaos, and no confirmation of what is happening, maybe it's a targeted killing instead of mass shooting, maybe it's just one or two pops to make a statement, and there's no intention for more. You know none of this going in. 

 

Don't underestimate how difficult active emergencies are. 

 

Also, one last note, our standing policy in the event of an active shooter reported, is to contain the situation as best as you can, which is generally a loose perimeter, and we send in a FAST team of the first 3-4 police officers to try to secure the inside while a SWAT team deploys, hopefully trying to find the shooter so tactical teams can deploy more effectively right away. But Hoppah and Mike are right in saying there's an understanding that you secure the perimeter as best as you can, last thing you want is for your incident to expand any further. And from my experience, I have to agree, security, even up to the level of Campus Police are not trained and equipped to be anything of use more than direction or expertise in the layout. Nothing in the way of a hero to save the day. 

[CCCXLII]

And from my experience, I have to agree, security, even up to the level of Campus Police are not trained and equipped to be anything of use more than direction or expertise in the layout. Nothing in the way of a hero to save the day. 

 

Your post reminds me of a relevant story: http://seattletimes....spuheroxml.html

[medicnick83]

Ah.

I remember the days when bunking school was the worst thing ever... little did I know... 

[miniboy349]

Not really, unless its self-defense obviously. Responding police have to contain the situation by setting up a perimeter. Specialized police units like swat or hrt will actively engage the shooter(s).

ERT*?

[MikeyPI]

Your post reminds me of a relevant story: http://seattletimes....spuheroxml.html

Here are several others:

http://www.nj.com/pa...terson_bar.html

http://feministing.c...ual-harassment/

http://www.latimes.c...1105-story.html

http://www.breitbart...ssault-On-Woman

 

These are just examples of what can happen when someone tries to be a hero. And in the grand scheme of things these were not even active-shooter instances.

 

@miniboy:  Diff areas/regions have different names for their SWAT, some call em HBT, some HRT, some ERT, some SWAT, some tactical response teams, the list goes on and on.  For the most part, they all are essentially the same intention though, better weapons at their disposal and higher training for specialized responses.